Missing Diver Off Vandenberg?

[johndiver999]

This is the problem with the diving industry as a whole. People are taken on dives that they should not be diving but for the most part survive which then the dive operators believe the dive is safe, Normalization of Deviance.

The wreck is in 140', all divers on that boat should be trained, equipped and ready to do a 140' deep wreck dive. Anything else is merely a "trust me" dive. And this clearly was a "trust me" dive since the report is that the dive master was leading the dive and signaled for them to surface.

I wonder how many of the divers (including the DM) on that day had the proper gas and equipment to conduct a 140' deep wreck dive?

For all we know it was a medical emergency, but it does not change that facts that taking divers on deep wrecks that are not properly trained and equipped for the max depth is a receipt for disaster.

Just because a person makes use of a dive master on a wreck dive does not necessarily convince me that they are incompetent or ill equipped for the dive. I also think that demanding everyone have a gas that is good to 140 feet for a planned dive to 100 or so, is not going to be a popular or a necessarily practical protocol to follow.

Also, people claiming they would never lose a buddy (or a wife) on a wreck dive is hard to swallow as well. If you don't know the conditions, the visibility, the current or even the mindset of the buddy, making that kind of assertion that "I would never make a mistake" is hard for me to believe.

If they know exactly where she was last seen, it seems like there would be a good chance to recover the body. Perhaps she shot towards the surface without anyone realizing, and then drifted off?

 

[Marie13]

Yes. The particular dive shop this diver was diving with the DM carries a slung 40 to hand off to any diver low on gas.

I doubt I will ever be able to wrap my mind around the mentality that a single 80 is acceptable for these types of dives. When I would have deeper dives single tank, it was mostly one of my HP80s with a slung 40. Sometimes I’d dive HP100s with the slung 40. I guess it’s just a different mindset between warm and cold water diving.

 

[luscioman]

Prayers going out.

 

[Wookie]

I doubt I will ever be able to wrap my mind around the mentality that a single 80 is acceptable for these types of dives. When I would have deeper dives single tank, it was mostly one of my HP80s with a slung 40. Sometimes I’d dive HP100s with the slung 40. I guess it’s just a different mindset between warm and cold water diving.

Yes, but you are a great lakes wreck diver with all that entails, trained by excellent instructors and taught to be a fully formed human being, taking as many of the Human Factors out of the equation as possible. You (by your own admission), have lots left to learn, as do I and everyone else, althought he subject matter is different for every one of us. You seek out excellence.

Some seek out an experience, and diving the Vandy is a great experience for most. Personally, I have no reason to ever dive it again. It's garbage disposed of on the ocean floor. I prefer screamers, as Pete refers to them. Conditions are quite marginal 350 days a year, with either poor visibility or high current, but it is the cash cow for Key West dive shops, as the Spiegal Grove is for Key Largo. Any day of the week you will find 5 boats on 5 moorings with 2 waiting and 4-12 divers on every boat. It is not great lakes wreck diving, it is somehow "safe" because it's in warm water and made "safer" because some shops provide a dive leader.

The whole dive industry is based on these safe warm water trust me dives, and by and large, divers come back from them with a great story to tell. I did the research many many years ago, you are thousands of times more likely to die in a car crash driving from Miami to Key West than diving once you arrive.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

Doing that dive with a single AL80 of air and no redundancy is common practice I'm sure. Basing that upon what I've seen on other wrecks in South Fl. I've never dived the Vandenberg. But look at the Lady Luck in Pompano. It's not THAT DIFFERENT in terms of depth (max and depth of the main deck) compared to the Vandenberg and I see divers with single AL80s of air and no redundancy on that wreck every time I dive it. It CAN be done within NDL but it is a really short dive, easy to find yourself quite far from the anchor and low on air, and a pretty high risk recreational dive for sure. I'd never do it that way but what is there preventing it? The industry fails at self-regulation and protecting divers from themselves all the time unfortunately IMO. Thankfully things turn out fine the vast majority of the time. However, sometimes accidents happen like the one this thread is discussing.

 

[Marie13]

Yes, but you are a great lakes wreck diver with all that entails, trained by excellent instructors and taught to be a fully formed human being, taking as many of the Human Factors out of the equation as possible. You (by your own admission), have lots left to learn, as do I and everyone else, althought he subject matter is different for every one of us. You seek out excellence.

Some seek out an experience, and diving the Vandy is a great experience for most. Personally, I have no reason to ever dive it again. It's garbage disposed of on the ocean floor. I prefer screamers, as Pete refers to them. Conditions are quite marginal 350 days a year, with either poor visibility or high current, but it is the cash cow for Key West dive shops, as the Spiegal Grove is for Key Largo. Any day of the week you will find 5 boats on 5 moorings with 2 waiting and 4-12 divers on every boat. It is not great lakes wreck diving, it is somehow "safe" because it's in warm water and made "safer" because some shops provide a dive leader.

The whole dive industry is based on these safe warm water trust me dives, and by and large, divers come back from them with a great story to tell. I did the research many many years ago, you are thousands of times more likely to die in a car crash driving from Miami to Key West than diving once you arrive.

I’ll agree with you and Pete on the “screamers.” Real wrecks (see my signature quote).

 

[jadairiii]

So if you're diving Bloody Bay Wall on Little Cayman you should be prepared to dive to 1000 FSW? Many dive sites involve diving structures that are well within recreational diving limits that are not over a hard safe depth bottom. How do we square that logic?

It's a trust me dive because the divers are not evaluating their skills and the dangers inherent in the dive, not because of the depth of the water. Under your rules there are a lot of wall dives that are off the list as well, Including my wall dive at Tahoe.

Just because a person makes use of a dive master on a wreck dive does not necessarily convince me that they are incompetent or ill equipped for the dive. I also think that demanding everyone have a gas that is good to 140 feet for a planned dive to 100 or so, is not going to be a popular or a necessarily practical protocol to follow

It is always so predictable. We are not discussing "wall dives" which have their own specific protocol and procedures to accomplish safely. And I am assuming divers realize that when doing wall dives.

My discussion was regarding diving "hard bottom" wreck dives. (which seemed obvious). When one is diving on a hard-bottom wreck any dive plan should include the possibility of having to actually go to the bottom, purposely or by accident. But clearly I'm in the minority here.

 

[Wookie]

It is always so predictable. We are not discussing "wall dives" which have their own specific protocol and procedures to accomplish safely. And I am assuming divers realize that when doing wall dives.

My discussion was regarding diving "hard bottom" wreck dives. (which seemed obvious). When one is diving on a hard-bottom wreck any dive plan should include the possibility of having to actually go to the bottom, purposely or by accident. But clearly I'm in the minority here.

Easy, Man. It's the A&I. Lotsa folks throwing lotsa possibilities and lessons learned. You aren't in the minority, there are numerous folks reading your posts.

 

[peeweediver]

Did this wreck 10 years ago as a DM, but not yet an Instructor. Did it with only a single AL80 as did the other 5 in our group Wicked current meant that I just crawled along the railings for 25 minutes then came up. Spouse and I were in the Keys last March, just before they closed for the pandemic, and our friends wanted to do this dive. We said no for a number of reasons but mostly based of my last experience and knowing it wasn't right for spouse.... or me. Didn't have a pony and can't do doubles due to shoulder issue, so not a dive for me. If I ever am in that situation and HAD to dive it for some unknown reason, I would only dive it with a pony but that's because I'm getting old and need that extra. I won't say you "shouldn't" do this wreck with only a single 80, because it can be done in less than 100 feet and within NDL. However, it's like everything else, you have to know yourself and your buddy (spouse). Not for us based on that knowledge. Since we don't know what happened here, can't speculate whether the diver got "out over her skis".
Condolences to family and friends. It's always heartbreaking as a diver to learn of a loss of life from diving.

Rob

 

[johndiver999]

It is always so predictable. We are not discussing "wall dives" which have their own specific protocol and procedures to accomplish safely. And I am assuming divers realize that when doing wall dives.

My discussion was regarding diving "hard bottom" wreck dives. (which seemed obvious). When one is diving on a hard-bottom wreck any dive plan should include the possibility of having to actually go to the bottom, purposely or by accident. But clearly I'm in the minority here.

Can you explain why it is so important to plan on going to the bottom of the wreck, while it is NOT important to plan on going very deep on a wall? Perhaps the answer is simply because you MAY be able to plan for the hard bottom of the wreck, but can't for a wall?

I personally try to understand the reasons for different protocols, rather than simply follow some "rule of thumb".

I'm really curious as to how you delineate and distinguish the two situations.

Thanks!