Laminate Drysuit questions

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Thanks all. A bit more info.
Brand new suit.
Yes, Burped the suit when donning.
Can not add ANY air for squeeze or I will float. Trying to get down to 8-10ft with full squeeze.
BCD will be used for buoyancy, not suit (but right now can not add air to either)
Undergarment is an Avatar, poly fleece inside. So yes, some air will probably be trapped.
Dampness is mostly at shoulders to arms, bottom half is dry. Thus thinking it is the seals.
Shoulder valve is mostly (to completely) open.
Yes-legs down, shoulder valve open at surface to drain all of air. but even when down 5+ feet, can not add air.
How thick is the undersuit? I'd expect the material to weigh roughly what neoprene weighs, so if it's twice as thick I would expect it to be twice as buoyant, and therefore need twice the lead. What you're seeing where triple the lead is still insufficient, is a little surprising but not impossible if the undersuit is really thick.

I agree with @lexvil though -- at the end of the day, you need to to be able to sink at the start and to hold a shallow stop at the end. If you can't do that, slap on some more lead. Steel HP80's are already pretty negative, so the only other gear swap I can think of would be to switch the BCD for a steel backplate and wing, which take care of 6-8lbs or so. If you have buoyant fins, maybe negative fins would shave off another 2-4lbs, but it will have a large affect on your trim, so you'll want to dial in the lead and possible skills issues before trying that.

Just to be clear on the burping. Once the suit is completely on and sealed, you want to use your finger to break the neck seal, and then squat your whole body near the ground to squeeze air out. Stand up, stretch and wiggle around a bit, and then repeat. You shouldn't have any problems walking or anything, but it might be a little uncomfortable.

Try diving with the dump valve completely open throughout the surface swim and the entire dive. This will help you to maintain a minimal amount of gas in the suit. At the end of the dive, I sometimes have little red lines on my skin from where a wrinkle in the suit was pressing against my body -- if you aren't seeing anything like that, then IMHO your suit isn't completely empty. It shouldn't hurt at all, but a little stiffness in the joints is to be expected. By the way, some dump valves will leak when they are 100% open, so will need to be closed a few clicks -- my Apeks low-profile one has never leaked on me, so I keep it completely open every dive.

As for the leaks, what kind of seals do you have? If they are latex, you'll want to be using talcum powder before every dive. If they're neoprene, you may need to roll them in on themselves to make a proper seal. My suit has silicone seals, and I find that I need to be vary wary of hair growing on my neck where the seal meets my skin. Since I haven't had a proper haircut in over a year now (thx covid), I have gotten in the habit of shaving the little fuzzy hairs that grow on the nape of my neck, which has greatly reduced leakage from the neck seal -- maybe you need to do the same.

For some people, the tendons in their wrists pop out pretty high, and can break the wrist seals. If the space between your tendons make large peaks and valleys when you move your hand around, this might be your issue. Not sure what you can do about it since I've never had this problem, maybe others would have advice. But I believe you could eliminate it by switching to a ring-based dryglove system, like Kubi or Rolock. I use Kubi drygloves myself, and honestly haven't even been using the built-in silicone seals, since the ring system makes such a good seal.
 
I can dive dry with less weight than diving wet, as the buoyant neoprene is no longer present with my Tri-lam dry suit. Be sure you are burping the suit before entering the water and add only enough air to keep you warm.

PADI teaches to use the suit air to control buoyancy and not the BC and I follow this practice because it works for me. This appears someone controversial as others manage with their BC. I find it easier to control buoyancy in one place vs. two.

Be sure you're managing however you're controlling your buoyancy consistently. I've never had an issue using my suit to maintain buoyancy and rolling my shoulder should I get too light to let some air out.

As stated above. Don't get too frisky without some time with an instructor in the water.

ETA: I don't have the link handy, but @rsingler buoyancy spreadsheet may help you estimate your weight requirements.

I must have taken a different PADI dry suit course because I was taught BCD was primary for buoyancy.... add air to dry suit to counter squeeze, warmth or as an alternate in a BCD bladder failure. Use as a buoyancy device or assist should come after competency is achieved in the use of the suit. This was restated on my solo course as well.

@Sodden Pixels you may have too much loft in your undergarments, and the laminate characteristics won't change when wet so you may need more lead or less/different undergarments. Have you verified your shoulder valve is venting?
 
Thanks for that. Yes, I've looked at my shoulder valve for the telltale bubbles. I'm thinking the same as your "much loft, more lead" theory. The undergarment is overkill here in Austin, but I'll be doing most of my diving in the Great Lakes so will need the warmth.
 
@Brett Hatch-Thanks for that. Funny you mentioned the little hairs on your neck, I just cut my hair and my wife shaves the back of my neck, so we can rule that out. Silicon seals. Not only burp the suit, but when entering the water via stairs with an open shoulder valve I can feel the squeeze starting with my legs. By the time my shoulder is submerged I can see the bubbles coming out of the valve.
I'm guessing @Cdncolwater are right with the undergarment thickness and will try more lead. As I said earlier, the 450gm undersuit is too much here in Texas, but I'm planning a lot of Great Lakes diving this season. Hence the thick suit.
 
I must have taken a different PADI dry suit course because I was taught BCD was primary for buoyancy.... add air to dry suit to counter squeeze, warmth or as an alternate in a BCD bladder failure. Use as a buoyancy device or assist should come after competency is achieved in the use of the suit. This was restated on my solo course as well.

I took mine in spring of 2020, not sure if time frame makes a difference or not.

Regardless, I agree probably too much undergarmet. I just wear some thermal long johns and they worked well for me in 42 degree water and minimal air in the suit.
 
@Sodden Pixels yeah, from what you have written here, it sounds like that to me as well.

As one point of reference, i'm 5'11", 175lbs, and am diving with a thin merino wool base layer and a DUI DuoTherm 300 single-piece undersuit in size L, which is made from 560 gram per square meter fleece, rated for 45-65 degrees F. I haven't stuck a caliper on it, but I'd say it's about 5/16ths of an inch thick as it's hanging in my closet. Diving it with my steel backplate/wing with an HP100 steel tank, I need about 14lbs of lead. If I were using an HP80's are a bit more negative jacket BCD's are a lot more positive, so with your rig I'd expect that number to be in the neighborhood of 22lbs.

I would need more lead if my suit were thicker, or if it was a two-piece suit with significant overlap, or if my body had a larger area. Between those factors it could easily get to the 30lb range. On the other hand if you're around my size and your suit is around my suit's thickness, then I would continue to look for areas to improve skills.

Sounds like you're on the right track. Best of luck.
 
I took mine in spring of 2020, not sure if time frame makes a difference or not.

Regardless, I agree probably too much undergarmet. I just wear some thermal long johns and they worked well for me in 42 degree water and minimal air in the suit.

Maybe, my course was in 2018; my instructors were tec background so they may have approached it differently.
 
@Sodden Pixels yeah, from what you have written here, it sounds like that to me as well.

As one point of reference, i'm 5'11", 175lbs, and am diving with a thing merino wool base layer and a DUI DuoTherm 300 single-piece undersuit, which is made from 560 gram per square meter fleece, rated for 45-65 degrees F. I haven't stuck a caliper on it, but I'd say it's about 5/16ths of an inch thick as it's hanging in my closet. Diving it with my steel backplate/wing with an HP100 steel tank, I need about 14lbs of lead. If I were using an HP80's are a bit more negative jacket BCD's are a lot more positive, so with your rig I'd expect that number to be in the neighborhood of 22lbs.

I would need more lead if my suit were thicker, or if it was a two-piece suit with significant overlap, or if my body had a larger area. Between those factors it could easily get to the 30lb range. On the other hand if you're around my size and your suit is around my suit's thickness, then I would continue to look for areas to improve skills.

Sounds like you're on the right track. Best of luck.

The DuoTherm 300 is very thick. I have it. Requires a lot more lead.
 
Thanks all for the input. As I’m using all the lead I have right now, maybe I’ll try a thinner merino layer before buying more weight. If steady at 8-10 feet, there is a thermocline at about 20 feet, so I’ll see how warm the merino keeps me. If cold, get more lead.
Taking small steps.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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