New Fast-Attack Nuclear Submarines to be Named Arizona and Oklahoma

[Bob DBF]

The sub commander also is a great choice but I cannot remember his name.

Lockwood.

Uncle Charlie to the sub force.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

I think his Anglophobia and his poor performance on the East Coast should have resulted in him not being promoted to chairman of the joint chiefs and the fifth star on the shoulder. Fletcher or Halsey could have filled Nimitz's position in 43 and Nimitz should have been in King's role.

Halsey I think would have been a bad pick for CINCPAC; he had his good days as a carrier commander (his raids on Rabaul in early November 1943 were probably his best work of the war), but he was also a hothead and gambler who made some damaging blunders (Leyte Gulf and Typhoons Cobra and Connie). One description I've seen of him was that he was an effective commander in the same sense that a berserker with a giant warhammer is effective - he was going to do a lot of damage with over a dozen carrier air wings at his command, but he wasn't going to dodge much. After Leyte and Typhoon Cobra there was serious consideration given to relieving Halsey of command, and it's arguable only the prospect of a messy PR fiasco in wartime spared him. His alternate in command of the Fast Carrier Task force, Spruance, was on the other hand a very savvy commander who dealt the IJN several of its most lopsided defeats (Midway, Truk, and the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot").

Granted, Fletcher gets partial credit for Midway as well and was definitely overlooked after the summer of 1942; King felt he wasn't aggressive enough in the Guadalcanal campaign (allowing Mikawa's cruiser force to sink four allied cruisers and get off scot-free except for some minor hits and one loss to a sub on the way home was a definite black eye, as was abandoning the Marines before they finished offloading supplies). He may have also had the stigma of the abortive December 1941 attempt to relieve Wake Island on him; Vice Admiral Pye, the interim CINCPAC who called off that mission (probably for good reason) was also criticized and sidelined by King. To be fair, Fletcher was a career surface warfare officer who early on was subordinated to carrier officers such as Halsey and Aubrey Fitch (the latter being another overlooked commander; Fitch primarily commanded the air operations at Coral Sea and was the overall commander of allied South Pacific air operations during the Guadalcanal Campaign).

I think it's fair to say that while King didn't help matters much during the U-boats' "American Shooting Season" in early 1942, he was hamstrung by shortages of ASW escorts and the Army was not initially cooperative in assigning their aircraft to antisubmarine patrols. I can see Nimitz perhaps doing better, but there wasn't a need to take him out of the successful job he was doing in the Pacific and while the U-boats did a lot of damage in 1942, it still wasn't enough to put the overall outcome in doubt.

 

[Steelyeyes]

Maybe they should just name the boats after badass skippers from WWII. Don't the USS Killer O'Kane or USS Red Ramage have a ring to them.

 

[Jared0425]

His alternate in command of the Fast Carrier Task force, Spruance, was on the other hand a very savvy commander who dealt the IJN several of its most lopsided defeats (Midway, Truk, and the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot").

You're right, I'd take Spruance over Halsey. I'd also give a leap promotion Miles Browning for his naval air operations. Make him a rear Admiral or Vice Admiral in case Fletcher goes out on one of his sickness bouts.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

Maybe they should just name the boats after badass skippers from WWII. Don't the USS Killer O'Kane or USS Red Ramage have a ring to them.

Not subs, but those two are already covered by the Arleigh Burke DDGs, along with John S. McCain (named jointly for a WWII carrier admiral and his sub skipper son, grandfather and father of the late Senator McCain), John Francis Laboon (a chaplain rather than a skipper), and Charles Momsen. Two current subs are named after former Silent Service personnel, albeit ones who never served in combat roles - Jimmy Carter and Hyman G. Rickover.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

Posting here for the moment ... one of the Indonesian Navy's subs went missing off the coast of Surabaya this morning.

The Search Is On For A Missing Indonesian Navy Submarine

Curious as to the reports that there were 53 personnel onboard a sub with the normal crew listed as 34 in references; I know subs often have observers onboard but that's an increase of more than 50%.

 

[Bob DBF]

Curious as to the reports that there were 53 personnel onboard a sub with the normal crew listed as 34 in references; I know subs often have observers onboard but that's an increase of more than 50%.

The percentage is high but the the number isn't, depending on what they were doing. Could be civilian contractors, military specialists, or additional submariners in training for the "live fire" exercise, which wouldn't happen often. As an example of riders, the USS Thresher was lost with around 20 civilian contractors onboard.

For day ops or a few days run, it would be very cozy, but could be done as submariners are gregarious folk. The problem with a lot extra personal on a small boat, is that they could get in the way in the event of a casualty,

Also, I don't know how their system works, but for short local and day ops, back when I was riding the boats, we would have riders onboard to collect sub pay while not assigned to a sub by making a dive during the month.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

The percentage is high but the the number isn't, depending on what they were doing. Could be civilian contractors, military specialists, or additional submariners in training for the "live fire" exercise, which wouldn't happen often. As an example of riders, the USS Thresher was lost with around 20 civilian contractors onboard.

For day ops or a few days run, it would be very cozy, but could be done as submariners are gregarious folk. The problem with a lot extra personal on a small boat, is that they could get in the way in the event of a casualty,

Also, I don't know how their system works, but for short local and day ops, back when I was riding the boats, we would have riders onboard to collect sub pay while not assigned to a sub by making a dive during the month.

Makes some sense, I'm just wondering about having that many on a 195-ft coastal sub versus a 360-ft nuke. A coworker told me one of his in-laws was a submariner and said taking extra bodies aboard was like double-stuffing a bus that might catch fire. As you said, if something went wrong they could be a hinderance.

 

[Jared0425]

It sounds like the deadline for breathable air has passed. Indonesian Navy has claimed that the sub most likely exceeded its (relatively shallow) crush depth at 800ft and now lies in area of 2000ft. They are also reporting they found a large magnetic contact in the area.

 

[Akimbo]

Indonesian Navy has claimed that the sub most likely exceeded its (relatively shallow) crush depth at 800ft and now lies in area of 2000ft.

The Indonesian Navy would know by now if an implosion near test depth occured, which is probably behind this statement. Even a small boat (submarine) like this one would make a tremendous implosion noise. There would be an acoustic signature recorded by several navies around the world — which most would be willing to share some information on even if they withheld the "where, when, and hows" the signal was detected. They may not be able to accurately triangulate to it because of all the land mass around the area but they would know a catastrophic hull failure happened on a general heading.