1.5v AA Lithium Ion battery use in strobes?

[fmerkel]

Thanks for that info. This was a fact gathering mission on a new(er) product. Near as I can tell 1.5v li-on pretty much have negligible use, if any, for any product at all that can't be done better by less established and less expensive chemistries.

 

[CZS]

I was under the impression that the Eneloop Pros were a no-no as well. The chart Jack posted seems to contradict that though, so perhaps that's changed...

 

[Interceptor121]

I was under the impression that the Eneloop Pros were a no-no as well. The chart Jack posted seems to contradict that though, so perhaps that's changed...

Eneloop Pro are fine it is just that some people feel the additional cost is not worth the extra 500 mAh

 

[fmerkel]

I was under the impression that the Eneloop Pros were a no-no as well. The chart Jack posted seems to contradict that though, so perhaps that's changed...

Lots of people don't really know much about batteries, any kind of battery. But that doesn't seem to stop people from having opinions, often strong but completely unsupported opinions.
Take a look at the discharge graphs I posted. The tests were done by a totally independent and amazingly thorough individual. Almost identical except for the capacity. I don't know how a 'Pro' could damage a strobe when the stock would not. Maybe people were fishing for any kind of explanation that they could find for fried Chinese D2's.

 

[CZS]

Lots of people don't really know much about batteries, any kind of battery. But that doesn't seem to stop people from having opinions, often strong but completely unsupported opinions.
Take a look at the discharge graphs I posted. The tests were done by a totally independent and amazingly thorough individual. Almost identical except for the capacity. I don't know how a 'Pro' could damage a strobe when the stock would not. Maybe people were fishing for any kind of explanation that they could find for fried Chinese D2's.

The speculation was that the statements by Panasonic/Eneloop specifically advising NOT to use their batteries in underwater strobes pertained largely to the "Pro" batteries. Presumably because the larger capacity Pros generated more heat and more potential for offgassing when discharged. In a sealed/underwater environment this could obviously cause problems. I know Backscatter specifically recommends against the Eneloop Pros and they're an official US service center for Sea & Sea, so I'll certainly continue to take their advice....

eneloop Technologies - Panasonic

 

[fmerkel]

Do you have a link for that? Couldn't find it.The precaution from Panasonic is just the lawyers covering their ass.

Sea and Sea does not seem to have that limitation: Note below from the linked chart.
[*1 Number of flashes and recycle time depends on the battery brand, temperature and frequency of use. *2 Number of flashes and recycle time of Ni-MH batteries were tested on 2400 mAh batteries.]

If they were using 2400mAh NiMh then they were likely using Pro or something similar.

No NiMh should 'off gas' unless it is in some kind of failure mode. UK used to have that precaution for their UW lights. I used them for damn near a decade with NiMh without any problems. Somehow the industry got over their paranoia after awhile.
That goes for Li-on also. Both chemistries do have safety vents, at least the good ones do, but they don't blow until a certain defined pressure is reached. Your device is in trouble if things get this far, a flood being one of the more likely scenarios.

FWIW I have personally experimented with putting NiMh in lights with the seal removed, put in an evacuated zip-lock bag, submerged in water and run until dead. I could never detect any evidence of H2 gas being produced. Doesn't mean it can't happen, but I tend to think this is more of a paranoia precaution than a real threat.

The only scenario I can see where the Pro would cause problems is that extra capacity. The D2 is known to occasionally cook the strobe under overheat circumstances. So....EVERY TIME....the strobe charges-discharges-charges > heat is produced by both the strobe itself and the battery. Over time this could be cumulative depending on the frequency of cycling and ambient temp, ie the ability to shed the heat. If you can cycle MORE, and not shed the heat in time you are getting closer and closer to a problem. Since you can get a LOT of flashes out of a set of fresh batteries, if you are pushing your strobe to that level on a single dive you are indeed creating some heat, no matter what the battery.

 

[Interceptor121]

The speculation was that the statements by Panasonic/Eneloop specifically advising NOT to use their batteries in underwater strobes pertained largely to the "Pro" batteries. Presumably because the larger capacity Pros generated more heat and more potential for offgassing when discharged. In a sealed/underwater environment this could obviously cause problems. I know Backscatter specifically recommends against the Eneloop Pros and they're an official US service center for Sea & Sea, so I'll certainly continue to take their advice....

eneloop Technologies - Panasonic

Panasonic disclaimer refers to any eneloop technology not just pro and the comment is actuallyfor NiMh

Please do not use eneloop Ni-MH batteries in underwater lights or other airtight appliances. Ni-MH batteries feature a gas vent that allows the release of hydrogen when the battery is misused. Gas will not be released under normal usage conditions, but hyper-electric discharge or short circuit can cause internal gas pressure to rise and gas to be expelled. This gas contains hydrogen and sealed devices can’t diffuse the gas, so any source of ignition may potentially cause fire.

So this refers to the battery being misused. Using a battery to charge a capacitor is not probably the intended use of the cells but de facto NiMh is the most effective cell. I see only a problem if you perform multiple fires at full power with the strobe itself overheating and not allowing the whole set up to cool down resulting eventually in the batteries releasing gas.

on the sea and sea YS-D1 page the specifications refer to NiMh so for me there is nothing specific to eneloop pro. Actually a higher capacity cell should manage better output currents than a smaller one as it would max out less

So the issue has to do with NiMh and every strobe is optimised for NiMh I think maybe what is required is a heatsink to cool down the strobe. As far as I know this is included in the new Inon Z330. Inon and Sea and Sea are made in plastic so may be affected
Units that are realised in Aluminum like Seacam Subtronic Retra should not have any isse as the aluminum will dissipate the heat

 

[Chris Ross]

INON specifically recommend to use eneloops (and Pro) , link to Z-330, Z-240 also recommends to use eneloops :

INON Z-330 Strobe [Spec]

believe it is due to the lower internal resistance generating less heat.

 

[fmerkel]

Higher performance NiMh have lower internal resistance so will produce less heat to do the same strobe charging task.There are chargers that will do capacity testing AND do a 'fair' job of checking internal resistance. IMO they are good enough for this task and a useful addition to your charging stable.

My wife has Inon_Z-330. The battery compartment is slightly external as a kind of bump on the side. It may get a bit more surface area cooling of the battery compartment...maybe. I see no other obvious heat sink involved at all.

The Panasonic advisory [Please do not use eneloop Ni-MH batteries in underwater lights or other airtight appliances. Ni-MH batteries feature a gas vent that allows the release of hydrogen when the battery is misused.] is exactly what I said, cover your ass liability disclaimer. Lawyers made them do it. If ANY battery powered system floods in saltwater, really bad things are going to happen. If it has happened to you...you know. Ugly.