2 Divers Shot in Pemba (Tanzania) Need Advice

[6Gill]

Right, I don't really want to discuss gun control, nor Michael Moore. My mistake for bringing those two things up.

I'll condense my rant (which was written in a state of being pretty annoyed) to two main statements:

a) The USA is not the safest place in the world, in fact it may be more "dangerous" than many places that people consider unsafe.

b) The rest of the world is not out there to get you, not even the Muslim world.

I have not met a single American travelling in the ME (yes, there are a few) and other Muslim countries who wasn't amazed at how people there actaully make a difference between US politics they disagree with and the individual person. Most people will like you (or dislike you, for that matter) for who you are and not for where you're from.



Well, Jordan is not the most honeymoony country, but a very safe place to travel, btw., virtually crime free, and has been at peace with Israel for a while.
A lot of Israelis do spend their holidays in Egypt, actually...

'nuff said. Let's talk about diving.

Well Stefo, before we start talking diving, I have a few points to talk about.

1) I really get annoyed, when people who live in foreign countries run down my Country and it's internal policies. (This includes the UN and it's thinly disguised gun control measures, that would effect this Country.) Whatever laws and or policies we Americans vote on and inact into laws to govern us is OUR own business. (I'm glad that you decided not to discuss the gun or M. Moore (The Fat Lier and Traitor.)

2) as for this Country being more "dangerous" than many places that people consider unsafe. I haven't heard of any beheadings here (American Newsperson in Pakistan.) nor have I heard of any happenings, like happened on that Island as well as other documented attacks on Americans and others in African Countries as well as the Phillipines over the past couple of years.

3) As for Americans being at more risk then others, especially in moslem countries you are dead wrong. (While I agree with your statement "I have not met a single American travelling in the ME (yes, there are a few) and other Muslim countries who wasn't amazed at how people there actaully make a difference between US politics they disagree with and the individual person. Most people will like you (or dislike you, for that matter) for who you are and not for where you're from." Yes even in your Country and France, it isn't the regular people you deal with as a tourist that are going to take you hostage and/or behead you, however; there are people and organizations in these Countries that will. (Have you been reading the news from Saudi Arabia? Were they not profiling Americans to kill?) Let's face it Stefo, Americans & UK peope are in more danger now, particulary in Moslem countries, then other people, especially you Germans and French and most other europeans, who did not supply troops or support the war in Afganistan and Iraq.

4) When I travel to a foreign country, I gauge my visits by recent activity in the news, as well as my Countries Department of State's warnings. Having spent a long time in my Countries military, as well as police work, mostly doing pretty dangerous things all over the world. (Two wars, Ranger, Special Forces NCO and Police Bomb technician) Now that I'm retired, I have no desire to hang my butt out again, where I or my wife maybe taken hostage, beheaded, etc while I'm on vacation and/or diving. Diving vacations are supposed to be fun! Remember?

6) I suppose that some Israelis do vacation in Egypt, I doubt that they draw attention to the fact that they are Israelis. My point mentioning Jordan was only to point out that most Israelis do not vacation in Moslem countries. It seems to me that a bunch of Israelis were recently killed in Africa at a hotel lobby, (Car bomb) as well as an attempted shoot down of an Israeli commercial aircraft there with a shoulder fired rocket. All done by extremist Moslems. Oh, and don't forget our Embassy Bombing in Kenya... do you think they were trying to kill germans there?

 

[stefo2]

1) Fair enough, that's why I don't want to discuss it. M.M. is not a foreigner, though, but an American criticising HIS OWN country. In your eyes that makes him a lier and traitor - that's an interesting way to deal with criticism. Seems like nobody is allowed to criticise American politics then, neither foreigners, nor Americans.

2) No, but there have been shootings, serial killers, school shootings (same in Germany, btw), people stabbed to death, terrorist attacks (by people from within and without the country), you name it. That doesn't make beheadings or pirate attacks on tourists any less terrible, of course.

3) I agree to a certain extend, there are organisations that would single out Americans. The "pirates" on Pemba certainly didn't care or even know what nationaltities the divers were. The divers kidnapped in Malaysia a few years ago and held hostage in the Philippines for 5 months were mainly Germans, as were the people kidnapped in the Sahara a while ago (who were ignoring all advice not to travel to that area, which is not what I'm advocating here!). It's a dangerous world for anyone, abroad and in one's home country.

4) Absolutely. That's why I said to the OP, don't go to Pemba if you don't feel comfortable about it, your honeymoon (or any vacation) should not be the time to worry but to enjoy yourself.
I personally worry less on holiday in Egypt in particular than walking around certain pats of my hometown at night, simply because I KNOW that it is safer. Don't trust everything you hear on the news...

5) Well, I hate to generalise, but most Israeli tourists I've met would find it pretty hard to keep a low profile and certainly don't hide where they are from.
Those attacks in Kenya (which, btw is not a predominantly Muslim country) certainly did single out Istraelis, the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania were directed against America, but killed mainly locals. The Bali bombings killed mainly Australians and various other nationalities. The bomb on a Tunesian holiday island a few years ago killed German tourists. I'm beginning to repeat myself.

Anyway, enjoy your diving holidays whereever you go. I should stop talking anyway, after all, if many people are afraid to travel to Egypt, Malaysia, Africa etc., it only means that i will have to share these wonderful places with less people!

 

[6Gill]

1) Fair enough, that's why I don't want to discuss it. M.M. is not a foreigner, though, but an American criticising HIS OWN country. In your eyes that makes him a lier and traitor - that's an interesting way to deal with criticism. Seems like nobody is allowed to criticise American politics then, neither foreigners, nor Americans.

2) No, but there have been shootings, serial killers, school shootings (same in Germany, btw), people stabbed to death, terrorist attacks (by people from within and without the country), you name it. That doesn't make beheadings or pirate attacks on tourists any less terrible, of course.

3) I agree to a certain extend, there are organisations that would single out Americans. The "pirates" on Pemba certainly didn't care or even know what nationaltities the divers were. The divers kidnapped in Malaysia a few years ago and held hostage in the Philippines for 5 months were mainly Germans, as were the people kidnapped in the Sahara a while ago (who were ignoring all advice not to travel to that area, which is not what I'm advocating here!). It's a dangerous world for anyone, abroad and in one's home country.

4) Absolutely. That's why I said to the OP, don't go to Pemba if you don't feel comfortable about it, your honeymoon (or any vacation) should not be the time to worry but to enjoy yourself.
I personally worry less on holiday in Egypt in particular than walking around certain pats of my hometown at night, simply because I KNOW that it is safer. Don't trust everything you hear on the news...

5) Well, I hate to generalise, but most Israeli tourists I've met would find it pretty hard to keep a low profile and certainly don't hide where they are from.
Those attacks in Kenya (which, btw is not a predominantly Muslim country) certainly did single out Istraelis, the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania were directed against America, but killed mainly locals. The Bali bombings killed mainly Australians and various other nationalities. The bomb on a Tunesian holiday island a few years ago killed German tourists. I'm beginning to repeat myself.

Anyway, enjoy your diving holidays whereever you go. I should stop talking anyway, after all, if many people are afraid to travel to Egypt, Malaysia, Africa etc., it only means that i will have to share these wonderful places with less people!

Well Stefo, I'll give you this, I'm also growing tired of this discussion! I also note, that you are good at shifting the points around to suit your views. Perhaps you have learned this from your exposure to MM?

I thought I made it very clear in (1) that M. Moore was an American, who bad mouthed his Country to a European audience, who eat up every word as gospel. I also made it clear that foreigners criticizing meddling or trying to influence the INTERNAL laws and policies of America was what annoyed me and most other Americans. (Gun Control, Laws, Internal elections, etc.

2) It seems to me that several American Soldiers were killed in your Country at a dance hall (Disco?) by a terrorist group supported by Libya. Some Germans may have been injured or killed as well, but as in Kenya, the target was Americans. Not to mention the Bader Minhoff (SP?) terrorist groups activities in your country.

3) Gee! I'm sure glad you agree that there are terrorist groups that target Americans! I think America has learned that lesson well! After all we have had 911, the other twin towers bombing, the US Cole, the 200+ US Marines killed in Lebanon, the US Embassy in Kenya, the PAN American flight that blew up over Scotland. and a few others that don't jump out at me. All Moslem terrorist related. Yes, other nationalities are sometimes caught up in the casualty list. These thugs rarely care about such things. The target was Americans!

Yes, the majority of the casualities in the Bali bombing were Australian, however; according to local authorities most of the time the place is filled with Americans and they thought the real target was to kill Americans. The terrorist do goof up sometimes.

4) I'm well aware that Kenya isn't a moslem country, I have spent some time there myself, as well as Tanzania. There are, however; active moslem terrorist groups in both Countries. Yes, a lot of the crimes like those on the Island and throughout Africa are caused by gangs of ex-soldiers/Thugs from one rebel group or another, usually either one time communist related and/or religious and/or tribal related, which have turned to pure banditry to support themselves. This does not preclude that these bandits maybe recruited or used by moslem terrorist groups. Why is it that they all seem to carry AK-47's and RPGs? Of course, the old Soviet regime, the Cubans and the Chinese were very active in Africa. The Chinese are still very active in Tanzania.

Oh yeah! Stefo, when you are enjoying yourself in those Countries, my advice is not to hang out with the Americans in the group or get to close to American establishments, etc. You just might be one of those poor people killed or maimed by these thugs trying to kill Americans!

 

[outlawaggie]

To quote Michael Moore, is to be so naive as to really believe a person who rearranges the facts to fit into his personal views. Mr. Moore seems to be very popular with the French and German's, as well as other Europeans right now. I guess this seems to fit into their (your) views of our Countries policies and actions around the world. Especially since he is known, to go to Europe and bad mouth this Country. His movies can be "entertaining" to those who who want to believe in the things that he preaches. When one closley looks at all the real facts involved, particularly his anti-gun movie, one finds that there are a lot of bald face lies and rigged statistics.

The fact is that in Florida, since they started issuing people concealed carry (gun) permits to people in Florida (As well as many other States.) Crime has taken a real downturn in every State where it's legal. The fears of the anti-gun people that we would have "wild west shoot outs," etc. have not occurred. Instead would be criminals are afraid to do their thing for fear that an armed citizen is there to stop them.

Now, take a look at some of the European Countris that have made their laws so restrictive that all firearms are taken away from honest residents. The UK is a great example! Gun related crimes have reached a record high in the UK, Canada and Australia. There is a lot of truth to the fact that when you take away the guns, only outlaws and Dictators will have them. (Remember Hitler? He didn't like guns either!)

The fact is that almost anywhere (to include Germany) can be dangerous, however; I doubt that I would do a Honeymoon in a place that has the record that Island has.

The fact that you as a German, doesn't fear travel in places around the world has little bearing on an American Citizen who travels in area where there are known terrorist gangs and/or Moslem anti-american groups, etc. Would the Israeli Honeymoon in Jordan? I doubt it.

Amen to the above. Hitler actually enacted the worlds first gun control and registration measures.

Michael Moore is a PROPAGANDIST not a documentarian. A bit of info you will never see in a Michael Moore film: The ONLY gun control measure EVER to be proven to reduce crime is CONCEALED CARRY laws. That's right LETTING people carry guns. Both Florida and Texas saw a 15% drop in violent crime in the year following the passage of concealed carry laws.

That off my chest I will add my two cents to the issue at hand. I was in Darr Es Sallam (Sp.??) The capital of Tanzania two years ago (two months after 9/11). Although it is CONSIDERABLY different than the U.S. (or Europe for that matter) I did feel safe. It helps to have a local or at least someone that speaks Swahili with you. Anywhere can be dangerous. i.e. Bali was considered safe until someone blew it up. Tourist get killed in just about ALL locals at one time or another. I do not mean to sound flippant about death but you can get killed falling down the stairs in your own house. I would rather die LIVING life than die never having lived.

 

[sbloomer]

I'm from South Africa and I can never understand why Westerners want to believe their value systems and idiologies exist in Africa???? It's Africa, it dangerous, don't go there without a gun, actually make sure it's an automatic too...........simple.

ShakaZulu,

As a fellow South African, still living in South Africa, I'm really disappointed in your attitude. So I take it you're not going to visit your family in Cape Town anymore (which you mentioned in another post)? Africa has its problems and people avoid trouble spots. Hell, most major cities are dangerous. A friend of mine was killed in the middle of Brisbane during an armed robbery!! I have overlanded in Africa and the only trouble I ever had were rogue elephants and corrupt border officials. And I have never even owned a gun.

While incidents like the one mentioned are never good to hear, alarmist attitudes like yours are tantamount to chasing away potential tourists (and therefore investment of sorts) and does nothing to help the situation.

Makes me wonder why you left SA in the first place....

Just my Zim$25million worth.

Proudly South African.

 

[BradfordNC]

Well, Jordan ... has been at peace with Israel for a while.

this is related to the fact that every time Jordan (many times larger than Israel) has been involved in a war against Israel the Israelis have beaten the tar out of the Jordanians. Seeing as how the list of Jordanian tactical wizards is shorter than the listing on a busines card, the Jordanians wisely decided to stop trying to "push the jews into the sea."


6gill - de oppresso liber brother
AD 3rd group here

 

[stefo2]

this is related to the fact that every time Jordan (many times larger than Israel) has been involved in a war against Israel the Israelis have beaten the tar out of the Jordanians. Seeing as how the list of Jordanian tactical wizards is shorter than the listing on a busines card, the Jordanians wisely decided to stop trying to "push the jews into the sea."

Not sure how this is relevant to any of the points made in this thread... :06:

 

[6Gill]

Not sure how this is relevant to any of the points made in this thread... :06:

Hey Stefo,

Check out this web site. this explains in some detail what the majority of Americans think of your hero Michael Moore, especially what he says overseas.

>http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/moore.htm<

 

[stefo2]

Hey Stefo,

Check out this web site. this explains in some detail what the majority of Americans think of your hero Michael Moore, especially what he says overseas.

>http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/moore.htm<

Look, 6Gill, I'm getting quite tired of you going on about MM being my hero and all. If you re-read my original post, I only mentioned him in parenthesis (and I wasn't even thinking about gun control then, but more about the alarmist, bordering on paranoid atmosphere he claims to have detected in his country, which he partly blames on the American media) and it had nothing to do with the main point of my post. You decided to read my comments very selectively.

And this is the last comment I'm going to make in this thread, unless it is back to the original topic of whether Pemba is a safe place to visit.

 

[ShakaZulu]

ShakaZulu,

As a fellow South African, still living in South Africa, I'm really disappointed in your attitude. So I take it you're not going to

....

Just my Zim$25million worth.

Proudly South African.

Nice $25 000 000 (ZIM) comment........... Maybe I need to explain. Having lived here as well as in SA, I've detected a real laid back attitude towards personal safety here, as a result of the fact that IT IS SAFER HERE. I don't have to be concerned about watching my back every five minutes, cause nothing is going to happen. Very unlike Africa. I've done volunteer work in Zambia and had to be escorted by an armed personal, and was adivsed to drive in convoys. Maybe things have changed, doubt it, it's Africa, one K creation...........

By all means my friends, go visit Cape Town, the most beautiful place on earth, and I still go there. I'm talking about the real Africa, outside of Cape Town.........Daai houtkoppe gaan julle gatte skop.