3-Day Open Water Certification?

[ScubaSteve_SoCal]

I think this is a fascinating discussion, so I'll lend some (hopefully) useful perspective from my experiences as both a diver and new DM.

I got my certification through a three-day course in Belize back in 2012, and thought it to be more than adequate at the time. In part, that was because I had an OWSI and a DMC all to myself, which really did make learning a hell of a lot easier. We went through the theory and confined water work on day 1, and did two dives each on days 2 and 3.

That said, I think the posts about your c-card being a license to learn nail it. I had the basics down, especially the all-important safety and basic problem management (OOA) skills. I ended up going more or less straight into AOW afterwards (Open Water 2 for all intents and purposes) and really felt that was the course where I began to really nail this whole diving thing. Because frankly, an easy way to force some buoyancy learning is to go diving in a Yucutan cenote...

I look back on these experiences having now completed my DM course and beginning my IDC and think that I probably could have used more detailed work on certain things, particularly when it comes to neutral buoyancy. I'm happy the updated PADI regs emphasize neutral buoyancy early in diver education rather than waiting until PPB/AOW. My skills could have used burnishing. But that said, I successfully went on multiple dive trips where I got complimented on my skills even with a relatively low number of dives, so perhaps I had good instruction, got lucky, was talking to complete morons, or had a smidge of talent. YMMV.

Now I watch this debate from my perch going through IDC and serving as a CA for instructors at my LDS. We do OW in two weekends: class-pool Sat, ocean Sun, pool Sat, ocean Sun. Students complete eLearning and all academic work prior to the first weekend. Instructors vary in their interpretation of mastery learning, but one constant I have noticed is that smaller classes get better instruction, period. Even two CAs can't do much to make up for the fact that there are 12 students in a class with one instructor at times. Class size translates into time in a significant way. With two, three, four students there is more than sufficient time to repeat skills in different settings, play games, etc. With 8 and up it's a struggle to get through the skills, particularly if one or more students have serious trouble. But we'll hold people back who haven't met standards, and almost all instructors will do extra work to help remediate. But remedial work outside of scheduled classes costs instructor time, which equals money. With true terrors, we have pulled folks aside and said, you will have to take private lessons to finish your course.

 

[Omisson]

I'd be interested in learning the statistics for the number of active committed divers who took 3 day courses vs. the rate for longer formats. O/W is just the first step. Keeping them diving is the goal, since the overall drop-out rate exceeds 75%. If there is a disproportionate drop-out rate among the 3-day certed divers, that should be some interesting data.
As a sport we cannot sustain 75% losses of O/W divers.

I did both- I took a 2 credit phys Ed college course in scuba diving -a four month, once a week, 2 hour class- and got a ymca cert. dove for two years then stopped.

15 years later I took a PADI 3 day OW course with my girlfriend. We both did the e-learning first and the course in Jamaica. Been diving like crazy for the last 7 years since.

Both had merits and could appeal to different demographics and needs.

I think a 3 day COURSE (day 1 class review & 2 pool dives AM then 2 open water dives PM- day 2 -AM 3 pool dives and 2 open water dives PM.... AND day 3 -2 open water dives) Can work.

Can work if elearning is done first and the students are already good swimmers -and comfortable in the water.

If they don't fit those prerequisites then no.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I currently have a private OW student. We meet once a week and the class will be 8 weeks long. 2 hours classroom and 2 hours pool each class. I can get through it faster than that with one student. Especially this one as he is a natural in the water with a Chemistry and Physics educational back ground. Standards say I need to have a minimum of 24 hours. 12 classroom and 12 pool. Recommended is 32. So he's getting the 32. He is also getting tables with deco, rescue skills, and lots of time to practice. Last week we did gear exchange while sharing air and drills where we dropped one BC and shared air swimming around the pool then back to the BC. We also did stationary buddy breathing. This week we'll do the exchange and swims while buddy breathing and then with blacked out masks. We'll do the bailout, then we'll work on rescue skills for the last couple sessions along with some extra task loading by doing the pool sessions in 7 mil suits.
He is paying the same for this OW class as others are paying for a private two weekend class at another shop.
Here we are pretty much done with OW checkout dives. He'll do his in the spring with one or two other private students I have coming in after the holidays to start. They will all get the same training and the last two sessions before OW I'll bring them all together or schedule a special session to do that so they can dive as buddies. I don't take more than 4 students into OW and then for the first two dives it's two at a time. Makes a long day for me since we do two one hours dives each for them meaning four for me. If conditions are good enough on the second day all four will get in the water together for the last dive. Or they won't if conditions are iffy.
I don't worry about time when it comes to checkouts or pool. Lucky that I get use of the pool in exchange for working there one day a week.
But when certifying people to dive the last thing that should be a factor is trying to get them done. If it requires rushing you don't do it. If you need to charge more to cover the extra pool time you do it. I will never teach where someone else is dictating how much time I can spend on new divers. I'll quit teaching OW students before I do that and focus on advanced, specialties, and tech students where I set the schedule like I do now.

 

[Omisson]

I currently have a private OW student. We meet once a week and the class will be 8 weeks long. 2 hours classroom and 2 hours pool each class. I can get through it faster than that with one student. Especially this one as he is a natural in the water with a Chemistry and Physics educational back ground. Standards say I need to have a minimum of 24 hours. 12 classroom and 12 pool. Recommended is 32. So he's getting the 32. He is also getting tables with deco, rescue skills, and lots of time to practice. Last week we did gear exchange while sharing air and drills where we dropped one BC and shared air swimming around the pool then back to the BC. We also did stationary buddy breathing. This week we'll do the exchange and swims while buddy breathing and then with blacked out masks. We'll do the bailout, then we'll work on rescue skills for the last couple sessions along with some extra task loading by doing the pool sessions in 7 mil suits.
He is paying the same for this OW class as others are paying for a private two weekend class at another shop.
Here we are pretty much done with OW checkout dives. He'll do his in the spring with one or two other private students I have coming in after the holidays to start. They will all get the same training and the last two sessions before OW I'll bring them all together or schedule a special session to do that so they can dive as buddies. I don't take more than 4 students into OW and then for the first two dives it's two at a time. Makes a long day for me since we do two one hours dives each for them meaning four for me. If conditions are good enough on the second day all four will get in the water together for the last dive. Or they won't if conditions are iffy.
I don't worry about time when it comes to checkouts or pool. Lucky that I get use of the pool in exchange for working there one day a week.
But when certifying people to dive the last thing that should be a factor is trying to get them done. If it requires rushing you don't do it. If you need to charge more to cover the extra pool time you do it. I will never teach where someone else is dictating how much time I can spend on new divers. I'll quit teaching OW students before I do that and focus on advanced, specialties, and tech students where I set the schedule like I do now.

Jim,

So I'm clear, This is basic open water, not advanced open water right?

What do you charge for an open water course private semi and group?

SSI Standards are 32 hours? Is that 16 class 16 pool? And do you ever find students dropping out or not finishing? There are not a fixed number of ow dives just an hour requirement? Are there pool time/ow hour counts required?

Approximately how many open water students have you certified ? Does the length of the class impact them returning for advanced open water or other courses? It seems that this method would virtually eliminate the time available to teach any other courses- how does it effect scheduling? Can you teach more than 4 in a classroom ?

What depth do you do the two -one hour dives at? Do you use NITROX or just air? Seems awfully long for first open water dives. Are they skill demonstration dives?

Looking forward to hearing back.

If every dive instructor did this much instruction I'd venture there would be a near zero accidental fatality rate in divers -

 

[RJP]

Wow. Just... wow.

US or international numbers? Any chance this has anything to do with economy, like, not being able to afford the meds and/or follow-up appointments?

Are you sure those numbers are real (after 2 years BP meds are down to 20%)? Why would anybody want to risk a stroke or heart attack because they don't want to take a cheap pill with minimal side effects?

flots.

I spent a fair bit of time (a few decades) in the pharma industry... these numbers are real. Real scary. I've seen the same shaped curve in almost every therapeutic category I've worked in. Some are higher, some are lower. But as you saw on the chart above... the shape of the curve is almost EXACTLY the same in every category. And it's been the same fromthe beigining of time. Or at least since 1987 when I first joined the industry. I used to work with a cardiologist that said "We have the best medicine that nobody takes."

The numbers (US and global) are even worse than they look when you consider that upwards of 30% of FIRST prescriptions are NEVER FILLED. So those numbers are already "only 70%" right out of the gate.

Why would people want risk MI, stroke, CV death? Dunno. Why do people smoke, eat crap, not exercise, get fat, sit in the sun, drive too fast, drink too much, etc...

There's no shortage of stupid things people do - or don't do - that shortens their lives.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

SEI standards are the old YMCA standards. Just beefed up a little. I teach maybe four or five ow divers, not classes, divers a year. Last year I taught none. Last year was all advanced and specialties. For those I have taught my con ed rate is around 85 percent. The first class they come back for is either uw nav, rescue, or a non cert workshop since SEI ow students are technically certed to the sport diving limit of 100 feet. I simply don't take more than 4 at a time. Usually it's one or two. The dives are dives. All are planned by the students using a good site briefing I give them. I don't lead the dives in the sense of students following me. They lead with me overseeing them in a position where I can get into direct contact with less than a fin kick. Buddy Skills are emphasized from day one. Even in a private class I move in front to demo a skill in the pool then get back beside them while they repeat.
Skills are not demo's by me on ow dives at all. They know what I want to see and they do it while swimming. Our dives are relatively shallow 35 ft or less for the first two. A max of 60 on dive three the second day and the 4th is another shallow one. I have no issues just using air. Ndl's are never really an issue with our surface intervals.
Semi private ow class is 400 plus rental gear and by end of pool sessions they need their own mask, snorkel, fins, boots.
Private class is 600 plus the above. Since I only have a few ow students and a couple weekends needed per year for checkouts I have plenty of time for much more lucrative and fun advanced, specialty, and tech classes.
I don't care about numbers. What I care about is creating divers at every level that I'd allow my kids to dive with the next weekend with me not there. Knowing that if something happened they could handle it.

 

[Omisson]

SEI standards are the old YMCA standards. Just beefed up a little. I teach maybe four or five ow divers, not classes, divers a year. Last year I taught none. Last year was all advanced and specialties. For those I have taught my con ed rate is around 85 percent. The first class they come back for is either uw nav, rescue, or a non cert workshop since SEI ow students are technically certed to the sport diving limit of 100 feet. I simply don't take more than 4 at a time. Usually it's one or two. The dives are dives. All are planned by the students using a good site briefing I give them. I don't lead the dives in the sense of students following me. They lead with me overseeing them in a position where I can get into direct contact with less than a fin kick. Buddy Skills are emphasized from day one. Even in a private class I move in front to demo a skill in the pool then get back beside them while they repeat.
Skills are not demo's by me on ow dives at all. They know what I want to see and they do it while swimming. Our dives are relatively shallow 35 ft or less for the first two. A max of 60 on dive three the second day and the 4th is another shallow one. I have no issues just using air. Ndl's are never really an issue with our surface intervals.
Semi private ow class is 400 plus rental gear and by end of pool sessions they need their own mask, snorkel, fins, boots.
Private class is 600 plus the above. Since I only have a few ow students and a couple weekends needed per year for checkouts I have plenty of time for much more lucrative and fun advanced, specialty, and tech classes.
I don't care about numbers. What I care about is creating divers at every level that I'd allow my kids to dive with the next weekend with me not there. Knowing that if something happened they could handle it.

I took the YMCA course back in 1996- I don't remember it being quite that intense- but I did have about 8 hours of pool time and probably the same in classroom. The ow dives were only four I think though- and they didn't last more than 30 mins each as I recall.

But it seems like the program SEI runs will ensure a quality diver -

but won't break into the resort/vacation market- for good or ill.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

We were told at our dema update last year by our ceo to send those wanting a shorter course to other agencies if we could not convince them to take our model. SEI does not want to be associated in any way with abbreviated courses. That is the official stance. Not just my rule. But it is why I only teach ow according to those standards. If we use the minimum 24 hour model we must add additional material during the ow check outs. The one hour dive time is not required by standards. That is just what I do since our conditions allow it. And I try to get students revved up enough about diving that seeing a catfish or bluegill nesting is almost as good as seeing a shark or manta ray. Not quite but you know what I mean. Any life seen underwater is exciting. That attitude can be nurtured during classroom and pool. I feel it's part of my job to do that. If I succeed it's more likely they will keep diving and dive locally. When you are able to have an OW student on checkouts hover over a grass bed in ten feet of water to see and really observe a hundred tiny fry swimming through that bed that are no more than a half inch long at most, everyone wins.

 

[flots am]

I know two divers that made one dive after certification, had a problem at depth, bolted, and will never dive again, so they are certified divers that did not die diving.

I get those at parties all the time. People will come up to me and tell me they're certified, and when I tell them "the dive boat goes out all summer, they should come out sometime", almost every single one has some horror story that starts with "Right after I was certified" and ends with "I won't/can't ever dive again".

From a dive safety perspective, they give a huge boost to the safety statistics. People who don't dive, won't die diving.

flots.

---------- Post added November 29th, 2014 at 09:09 AM ----------

I spent a fair bit of time (a few decades) in the pharma industry... these numbers are real. Real scary. I've seen the same shaped curve in almost every therapeutic category I've worked in. Some are higher, some are lower. But as you saw on the chart above... the shape of the curve is almost EXACTLY the same in every category. And it's been the same fromthe beigining of time. Or at least since 1987 when I first joined the industry. I used to work with a cardiologist that said "We have the best medicine that nobody takes."

The numbers (US and global) are even worse than they look when you consider that upwards of 30% of FIRST prescriptions are NEVER FILLED. So those numbers are already "only 70%" right out of the gate.

That's impressive. Not in a good way.

When I was in my 20's my father had all sorts of CV issues, and my dr started saying things like "Your BP is up a little, let's watch it." After a couple of years of that, I said "Let's not. You're a doctor. Fix it."

And he did. Been taking the same BP pill since then. Nurse checks every 6 months and says "Hey you're doing awesome" and I always answer "Better living through chemistry".

I just can't imagine anybody trading a stroke or heart attack at ~50 for taking a stupid little cheap pill that doesn't bother anything and fixes the problem.

Oh well. Lead a horse to water. Etc. . . .

flots.

 

[BDSC]

When I took my OW course many years ago, we met for four consecutive Thursday nights doing classroom first and then the pool work. We finished with doing our OW dives on a Saturday and Sunday. At no time did I feel rushed in my classes. If a person is relatively comfortable in the water and can self study, I can't imagine a three day course not being enough time to complete the course, especially if you are devoting most of each day to it.