3 Divers lost on the Spiegel Grove

[Ayisha]

Three divers perish on Spiegel Grove
BY STEVE GIBBS
Free Press Staff
KEY LARGO —
...we spotted three stage tanks and a line that went into the next room

So are we back to a possible line/broken line again?

 

[H2Andy]

So are we back to a possible line/broken line again?

well, this is just a guess, but since they didn't run a line in (none was found), this guy probably ran a line out trying to find his way to an exit

that's SOP if you get lost, at least in cave diving, not sure in wreck diving

but it doesn't quite make sense ... if he reached the stages, why didn't he use them?

 

[jeandiver]

well, this is just a guess, but since they didn't run a line in (none was found), this guy probably ran a line out trying to find his way to an exit

that's SOP if you get lost, at least in cave diving, not sure in wreck diving

but it doesn't quite make sense ... if he reached the stages, why didn't he use them?

Agree on the running a line...Maybe trying to find an exit.
Gads...Right next to stages and ???!!!!
(sigh)
(we will never know , I guess)

"Due to murky conditions from stirred-up silt, the recovery divers had to feel their way to the bodies."
Oh boy , and this was a day later...
Granted , you are going to probably (guessing here) to do some poofing on your own but if that area was STILL SILTY from the day before.
Man oh man , and with a narrow passage like that...

UFFDA (another sigh)

Just makes me real sad...No judgement on anyone , just SAD !!!

Jean

 

[scububa]

Of course it is... but we're talkin' 'bout wrecks here, not caves. There may be some special circumstance - I reckon you could scooter in the O-boat hangar bay, for example - where thirds needs modification, but it's pretty rare. (a third of your penetration gas... that's a third of what you have after reserving your lost-gas deco gas etc).
Rick

Been away for awhile, so just getting back to this...

what I was getting at is that when doing a penetration (pick your favorite overhead) without a line and using strobes or something with as many more failure modes than a line, you might should plan much more conservatively...if you can't find your way out, you can't find your way out...cave, cavern, wreck, mine, or whatever I left out...so, wreck vs. cave seems moot...doing something that you (potentially) hadn't done before or that wasn't "proven" (i.e. technique exporation) would suggest a reason to use a more conservative plan. I believe that is the basis of cavern and basic cave mandating a rule of 1/6s for doubles. At that level, you haven't done any of it before.

In my mind, using strobes to navigate out would fall into that sort of thought process. As divers, I don't think we should be planning with a "this might work" but rather a "what's plan B?". Most of the progress of diving seems to involve that model. But, I still have a lot to learn and haven't dove in a tremendous amount of different envrionments. Heck, when I jump into salt water, all my spider senses are tingling...

 

[Jcsgt]

Well this is a hell of a thing to come back to after two weeks. How awful.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Been away for awhile, so just getting back to this...

what I was getting at is that when doing a penetration (pick your favorite overhead) without a line and using strobes or something with as many more failure modes than a line, you might should plan much more conservatively...if you can't find your way out, you can't find your way out...cave, cavern, wreck, mine, or whatever I left out...so, wreck vs. cave seems moot...doing something that you (potentially) hadn't done before or that wasn't "proven" (i.e. technique exporation) would suggest a reason to use a more conservative plan. I believe that is the basis of cavern and basic cave mandating a rule of 1/6s for doubles. At that level, you haven't done any of it before.

In my mind, using strobes to navigate out would fall into that sort of thought process. As divers, I don't think we should be planning with a "this might work" but rather a "what's plan B?". Most of the progress of diving seems to involve that model. But, I still have a lot to learn and haven't dove in a tremendous amount of different envrionments. Heck, when I jump into salt water, all my spider senses are tingling...

Understand, but... Using gas to try to cover a fatally flawed plan (strobes instead of a contiuous guideline) still leaves you with a fatally flawed plan.
Rick

 

[tridacna]

No more guessing.

Howard made it made to the stage tanks. He thought about taking them to his buddies. He decided against it because he was worried that they may make it back to the tanks and he would not be there. They all owed too much deco for a safe ascent without stops. Howard surfaced, alerted the boat and then dropped down to 20 feet to complete his deco. Kevin apparently found his way out but not Scott or John.

I believe that lessons have been learned from this incident. I went to all three memorial services; It was horrible. Let's let this die and not rehash every detail over and over.

IMHO:

Lesson 1. Dive a plan
Lesson 2. Use your own reel and lay the line. All divers carried reels. None used it.
Lesson 3. Do not use someone else's old line. Who knows?
Lesson 4. Bring stage tanks closer to you than you think that you need them.

Lesson 5. Overconfidence is a bigger killer than inexperience.

Anyone who knew them or was with their friends and family at the funerals would know that the last thing that they would want is for their errors to be discussed ad infinitum. Let's learn a lesson and move on.

RIP my friends. It won't be the same up here without you.

 

[Missdirected]

No more guessing.

Howard made it made to the stage tanks. He thought about taking them to his buddies. He decided against it because he was worried that they may make it back to the tanks and he would not be there. They all owed too much deco for a safe ascent without stops. Howard surfaced, alerted the boat and then dropped down to 20 feet to complete his deco. Kevin apparently found his way out but not Scott or John.

I believe that lessons have been learned from this incident. I went to all three memorial services; It was horrible. Let's let this die and not rehash every detail over and over.

IMHO:

Lesson 1. Dive a plan
Lesson 2. Use your own reel and lay the line. All divers carried reels. None used it.
Lesson 3. Do not use someone else's old line. Who knows?
Lesson 4. Bring stage tanks closer to you than you think that you need them.

Lesson 5. Overconfidence is a bigger killer than inexperience.

Anyone who knew them or was with their friends and family at the funerals would know that the last thing that they would want is for their errors to be discussed ad infinitum. Let's learn a lesson and move on.

RIP my friends. It won't be the same up here without you.

Tridacna, thank you for the information you have provided. It is very much appreciated. You have filled in some blanks, while at the same time pointing out many of the very same conclusion's we have come to or reaffirmed for ourselves.

With all due respect , we arrived or are arriving at those conclusions through these discussions. For some it has been a learning process and for others a reaffirmation. It has been a good and productive thread that has stayed in check at all times.

I understand how you might find it upsetting but you must keep in mind that this is not the memorial thread and try not to let your emotions get the better of you. I too have been in a similar situation as you and empathize with its difficulties.

Lastly, I would be surprised if a fellow diver, the survivor, especially with his background, wouldn't think this would be up for discussion. That is my personal thought. As for the others, I don't understand why they wouldn't want people to learn from their mistakes. However, I did not know them personally.

 

[Missdirected]

So are we back to a possible line/broken line again?

No. At least not for me. I am still wondering about the chained off area. *Even if it wasn't chained anymore.

Quoted from Free Press:
The body of one diver was recovered Friday, but two others were left overnight deep in the bowels of the ship, in an off-limits area, according to Key Largo Fire-Rescue Chief Sergio Garcia.

"Before the ship was scuttled, hundreds of holes were cut into the ship to allow divers to escape in case of an emergency," Garcia told the Free Press. "This one area had been chained off as an unexplorable area."

One of the friends had said before that the team did in fact have a dive plan. Part of their plan was to dive the "Pump Room". So assuming they did their research, they would know this area to be off-limits, yes? Even for the most highly skilled this was suggested a no go zone, if you will. Another flaw in the "dive plan"?

 

[H2Andy]

Howard made it made to the stage tanks. He thought about taking them to his buddies. He decided against it because he was worried that they may make it back to the tanks and he would not be there.

so was he the one that lay the line out? except the press reports say the line did not go out, but to a side room.

the diver who almost made it out, did he lay his own line as well? do you know why he was found in a room off the exit passageway? do you know why he didn't use the stages?

can you clarify the picture the press is portraying?