4 questions after a first dive weekend

[filmguy123]

1.) DSS, BP/W, and Tobin's short inflator hose
Man this thing is short. I can't even get my hand arched around into the thumb/pointer finger I was taught when I am wearing full coldwater gear. An extra 4-5 inches here would be nice. I don't mean to start a debate or anything of the sort, but let me ask: I assume this problem is on me... what is the proper form to handle this thing? Like I said, with all my gear on, I find it exceptionally difficult if not impossible to get my left hand on that L position.

2.) BP/W and a weight belt makes it hard to ditch weight if ever needed
So, the weight belt goes under the BP/W crotch strap. On one hand, this is as easy as "just undo the BP/W, then the weight belt". On the other hand, as a brand new diver using as harness system unfamiliar to everyone around me, this is a few extra steps of complexity. First undo the BP/W, then thread the crotch strap out, and now my weight belt is clear for release. Ok. I don't love the extra steps there. But my greater concern is that of other divers having no idea what to do. Unfortunately (for better or worse), even many instructors and DMs weren't familiar with the BP/W setup and I had to explain to them how to release the weights from me if ever needed. They didn't seem super confident in this - or should I say, I did not feel super confident in their ability to handle this. Any thoughts on how to better handle weighting to keep things as safe as possible while I am new? I'm not talking about a speculative and highly undesireable out of air weight ditch below the surface... thinking more of just a surface emergency of some sort. Perhaps I am overthinking that, but as a new diver, the BP/W with full coldwater gear is not easy to slip out of, people around me have no idea how to unhook it, it's heavier than most any BC because of all the integrated weight, and releasing the weight belt requires undoing multiple straps that others don't know how to use first. Disconcerting.

3.) Slight over weighting as a beginner?
What is the best balance between proper weighting and slight over weighting? I know the scuba pros here will *always* advocate proper weighting - of course! It's called proper for a reason. But throw yourself back to dive 5. With proper weighting, it seems quite difficult to get that initial ascent going. I'm fine with that. However, it can be problemetic on the way BACK - it's quite difficult to hold buoyancy at 15 feet currently, because you must be great on breath control, etc. Additionally, in the event of loss of control of buoyancy, it seems it would be very difficult to stop oneself once the snowball affect takes over, even with all weight ditched from the BC - because once you hit 15-20 feet with any amount of momentum, I don't see how you could stop yourself without perfect breath control and proper form.

Perhaps I am missing something here - but it seems a little overweighting of 2lbs or so would assist in keeping one down at these shallow depths where the pressure change is so strong, and the buoyancy is difficult? I know that in general, over-weighting requires use of more air in the BC which expands more upon ascent, and so over-weighting is not a great solution as it can actual cause you to be working with excess expanding air - but is there ever a good balance or trade off here for safety as a beginner until buoyancy is more dialed in?

4.) Proper weight distribution
On a BP/W setup, do you ever want any weight placed towards the front of the torso (chest area, front of weight belt)? Or should it all be centered on hips and back, with the only placement considerations being towards the head or tail? I seemed to have some problems with the rig wanting to pull me backwards from a vertical position, but that may also be as simple as a form issue? Any weighting tips to help prevent roll as well?

 

[billt4sf]

Great questions .... I remember having those questions! I use a BP/W and a DSS kit.

My first comment is: can you find someone in your area to help you? Getting feedback on ScubaBoard is one thing, but having someone look at this and help you with it -- MUCH better.

Second comment: what about further instruction? You're probably saying to yourself: "I just got certified, I spent all this money on gear, and now he is suggesting I pay out MORE money?" (I was there! And not so long ago!!) But for me, I never truly learned how to use the BP/W really WELL until I took GUE Fundamentals. Maybe it's too early for that. Maybe a few hundred $$ and some pool time will get you set MUCH better than all the discussions on ScubaBoard ever will -- it did for me. (Thank you, Beto!)

You will likely get a ton of responses on the particular questions you ask. I could give mine, but I don't want to dilute my message.

Cold water diving is hard. But very rewarding if you get it right.

- Bill

 

[chillyinCanada]

This is exactly why I don't believe that experienced BP/W divers here on Scubaboard should be responding to beginning divers about gear recommendations. Or if you do, then heavily emphasize why they should be taking their instruction with an instructor that teaches this way and not just any PADI etc shop lessons.

 

[JohnnyC]

1) Is your BP/W adjusted properly? Is the wing mounted correctly? Realistically you could use a 6" corrugated hose and it would still function correctly as an inflator/dump. The only thing you couldn't do is orally inflate. Did someone with experience help you with this process or did you just throw it together yourself?

2) If you're properly weighted when rec diving, you shouldn't need to ditch weight at all, thus the issue becomes moot. As a recreational diver you need enough weight to maintain neutral buoyancy at a safety stop. This is not enough weight to prevent you from swimming your rig to the surface in the case of BC failure.

3) See above. Properly weight yourself. Don't use gear to overcome a skills problem. One of the perils of buying a bunch of stuff before you know what you're doing is compensating by doing things like shoving a bunch of weight all over the place.

4) Distribute the weight to achieve proper trim. You should only be vertical on the surface. You should be horizontal everywhere else in the water column.

 

[Diver0001]

1.) DSS, BP/W, and Tobin's short inflator hose
Man this thing is short. I can't even get my hand arched around into the thumb/pointer finger I was taught when I am wearing full coldwater gear. An extra 4-5 inches here would be nice. I don't mean to start a debate or anything of the sort, but let me ask: I assume this problem is on me... what is the proper form to handle this thing? Like I said, with all my gear on, I find it exceptionally difficult if not impossible to get my left hand on that L position.

This is a cave rigging that has an application in that context because you may literally not be able to extend your arm up and above you far enough for a long(er) inflator.

The question you need to ask yourself in order to understand where the solution lies is this: "am I diving in a cave?"

2.) BP/W and a weight belt makes it hard to ditch weight if ever needed
So, the weight belt goes under the BP/W crotch strap. On one hand, this is as easy as "just undo the BP/W, then the weight belt". ....snip .... ll the integrated weight, and releasing the weight belt requires undoing multiple straps that others don't know how to use first. Disconcerting.

In the context in which this configuration was reached, divers are routinely taught to have a redundant source of buoyancy (a closed circuit blob, drysuit, lift bag, dual bladder wing... etc.). This gives the diver a "plan B" that will win them time in an emergency on the surface to ditch things they don't need like stages, weights, etc.

As for undoing straps. If you are using this config then it's a really good idea to have a "line cutter" in addition to (or as a replacement for) a knife because a line cutter will get you out of your set in a few seconds by cutting the straps. Undressing someone in a Hogarthian rig in the middle of a ****-storm isn't going to happen. You will have to cut them out.

3.) Slight over weighting as a beginner?
What is the best balance between proper weighting and slight over weighting? ....snip....

I'm not quite sure I understand your problem here. It sounds like you're having trouble trimming in it and are asking if more weight is the solution. On the surface of it I would tend to suggest to weight yourself so you are comfortable and dive lots with it shallow, where buoyancy swings are greatest, for a while. Check weighting and trim after every few dives as you get used to it.

4.) Proper weight distribution
On a BP/W setup, do you ever want any weight placed towards the front of the torso (chest area, front of weight belt)? Or should it all be centered on hips and back, with the only placement considerations being towards the head or tail? I seemed to have some problems with the rig wanting to pull me backwards from a vertical position, but that may also be as simple as a form issue? Any weighting tips to help prevent roll as well?

I fair number of people become very determined to always remain horizontal in this rig for the reason you mentioned. you'll get used to it. The key is to dive it a fair amount and to check your weighting and trim on a regular basis.

Getting help from someone who is familiar with the issues would be a great help. Do you know anyone you can dive with who could help you tweak this?

R..

 

[RainPilot]

Hey, glad you survived the altitude dive
Agree completely with Bill, you need someone to show you in person. Luckily I believe you will be diving with a new instructor soon, should clear these issues up no worries.

For the benefit of the others reading who have similar issues, here's my take, I know Im repeating what others have said but its worth hearing twice
:
1. Don't know the Tobin hose. However, the usual reason for the PADI style hand grip is to allow the hose to be held up and the air dumped from the BCD for a vertical descent or ascent. When diving neutral and trimmed, you don't need to dump so much gas to ascend and descend. Also, the most useful dump is usually a rear dump on the bottom of the wing, as that will be easy to make the highest point while horizontal. I don't know when last I used the hose for anything other than the inflate button. As long as you can comfortably use the oral inflate and press the LPI, you should be good.

2. If you are correctly weighted, especially with a drysuit, there is very little reason for anyone to need to ditch the weightbelt. You should be negative to the tune of your backgas and with a wing AND a DS, there shouldn't be any reason to need to dump weight to maintain surface flotation. If there is a major issue, I would cut every strap I found until you were out of your rig. I generally use weight pockets on my BP harness so no extra belts.

3. Slight overweighting is in my opinion ok. Defining "slight" will however make the board explode... A pound or 2 early on in your career while you are still nervous / new etc is not necessarily a bad thing. I for one wouldn't lose sleep over a pound or 3.

4. Place weights wherever you need them to be as close to horizontal as possible without effort. As long as your ditchable weight is where a buddy can find it, by all means put the rest wherever works for you. I pop 2 pounds inside the counterlung covers on my rebreather occasionally when Im wearing a thicker suit. Play around in the pool to work out your distribution then scale up for salt water in the same ratio.

Edit: simultaneous post with Diver0001, I agree with his points as well.

 

[CuzzA]

You're going to find that as you dive over the course of the first year or so that your rig is going to change a lot. Hell, it may never stop changing as new ideas and techniques come up.

My advice is to keep adjusting until you get your setup the way you like it and feel most comfortable. This is one advantage using a BP/W has over jacket BC's. You can adjust it to meet your demands.

If you want a longer dump hose, well put one on it. It's your rig, while a short hose may work for some, it may not for others. Maybe you've got long Michael Phelps arms. Nobody on an Internet forum could possibly know this.

For what it's worth, I've been diving consistently over the past year and I've pretty much finally dialed in my setup, but even yesterday I did 3 dives and found I was moving trim weight pockets as I was diving a new tank for the first time.

 

[CT-Rich]

Scuba Board readership tends toward the tech end of the spectrum, and many divers are very voiciferous about their preferences. But when you are a new diver it may be most beneficial to pay attention to what those around you are using instead of diving into gear a smaller percentage of serious divers prefer.

First, as a new diver, you need to be comfortable in the water and central to that is understanding your gear. If your best friend is wearing a BP/W and he loves it, great. You have a mentor to help you learn. But if not, you may be more comfortable diving a more conventional BCD rig or back inflate rig either with weight pockets, belt or both. The people around you with more experience will be able to help you more, making diving fun. If you struggle with gear and become frustrated, you may decide diving isn't for you. Sadly I think that happens too often.

Most introductory rigs are not going to be forever choices, we call those spares, back-ups and loaners. Starting out as a new diver, learn from those around you, while their choices may not make immediate sense to you, they are probably quite logical for the type of diving they do (and you are probably interested in doing).

The advantage of supporting your LDS is that they can discuss and educate you on the equipment and application of it for your needs. This isn't so much directed at the OP, since he has already invested in his gear, but to others reading these threads about getting started in diving. What I do in New England is not the best gauge for what a vacation diver or a Florida diver might want.

 

[Neilwood]

1.) DSS, BP/W, and Tobin's short inflator hose
Man this thing is short. I can't even get my hand arched around into the thumb/pointer finger I was taught when I am wearing full coldwater gear. An extra 4-5 inches here would be nice. I don't mean to start a debate or anything of the sort, but let me ask: I assume this problem is on me... what is the proper form to handle this thing? Like I said, with all my gear on, I find it exceptionally difficult if not impossible to get my left hand on that L position.

2.) BP/W and a weight belt makes it hard to ditch weight if ever needed
So, the weight belt goes under the BP/W crotch strap. On one hand, this is as easy as "just undo the BP/W, then the weight belt". On the other hand, as a brand new diver using as harness system unfamiliar to everyone around me, this is a few extra steps of complexity. First undo the BP/W, then thread the crotch strap out, and now my weight belt is clear for release. Ok. I don't love the extra steps there. But my greater concern is that of other divers having no idea what to do. Unfortunately (for better or worse), even many instructors and DMs weren't familiar with the BP/W setup and I had to explain to them how to release the weights from me if ever needed. They didn't seem super confident in this - or should I say, I did not feel super confident in their ability to handle this. Any thoughts on how to better handle weighting to keep things as safe as possible while I am new? I'm not talking about a speculative and highly undesireable out of air weight ditch below the surface... thinking more of just a surface emergency of some sort. Perhaps I am overthinking that, but as a new diver, the BP/W with full coldwater gear is not easy to slip out of, people around me have no idea how to unhook it, it's heavier than most any BC because of all the integrated weight, and releasing the weight belt requires undoing multiple straps that others don't know how to use first. Disconcerting.

3.) Slight over weighting as a beginner?
What is the best balance between proper weighting and slight over weighting? I know the scuba pros here will *always* advocate proper weighting - of course! It's called proper for a reason. But throw yourself back to dive 5. With proper weighting, it seems quite difficult to get that initial ascent going. I'm fine with that. However, it can be problemetic on the way BACK - it's quite difficult to hold buoyancy at 15 feet currently, because you must be great on breath control, etc. Additionally, in the event of loss of control of buoyancy, it seems it would be very difficult to stop oneself once the snowball affect takes over, even with all weight ditched from the BC - because once you hit 15-20 feet with any amount of momentum, I don't see how you could stop yourself without perfect breath control and proper form.

Perhaps I am missing something here - but it seems a little overweighting of 2lbs or so would assist in keeping one down at these shallow depths where the pressure change is so strong, and the buoyancy is difficult? I know that in general, over-weighting requires use of more air in the BC which expands more upon ascent, and so over-weighting is not a great solution as it can actual cause you to be working with excess expanding air - but is there ever a good balance or trade off here for safety as a beginner until buoyancy is more dialed in?

4.) Proper weight distribution
On a BP/W setup, do you ever want any weight placed towards the front of the torso (chest area, front of weight belt)? Or should it all be centered on hips and back, with the only placement considerations being towards the head or tail? I seemed to have some problems with the rig wanting to pull me backwards from a vertical position, but that may also be as simple as a form issue? Any weighting tips to help prevent roll as well?

Taking them in order (as a relative newbie with 20 dives - 16 of which have been on BP&W):
1) Not got a DSS rig but they are similar enough. I only tend to use the hose for inflation or during ascent at the end of a dive - length really isn't a great issue at that point. Butt dump for use during most of the dive.
2) You don't have to have the weightbelt under the crotch strap - that is a tech diving configuration where missing a deco stop or having an uncontrolled ascent in an overhead environment due to lost weight might be dangerous or even deadly. For OW recreational diving there is nothing wrong with having the weightbelt over the crotch strap which removal easy.
3) As a fellow beginner, I would tend to suggest slight overweighting (by 2-3lbs) is nothing to be afraid off. You will only need a small amount of additional air and you don't have to worry as much during an ascent losing control. Don't be in too much of a hurry to hit "perfect weight", get control of what you have. You also don't want to be in the situation where you have to compromise your breathing to maintain your stop/depth. The issue most people on here have with overweighting is not by 2-3lbs but by 10-15lbs (weighting them for kneeling on the bottom for skills).
4) On my rig I have my weight at my sides. I have 3kg on each side on the weightbelt and 2kg on the harness within pockets. Make sure all the weight on the belt is kept in place by slides otherwise you can end up with it all on one side or in the middle (just ask me how I found that out...why am I suddenly looking at the horizon side on???). For me that allows decent trim with any minor issues being dealt with by tank position (shifting by a few inches relative to the bands. I dive with steels and found they trim pretty well for me so I don't need trim weights but that is not to say you might not.

What helped me a great deal was that my OW instructor wears a BP&W and helped me a great deal with set up during some fun dives and my AOW with position of Drings, length of straps, weight positions etc. If you can find a mentor who dives one it helps a lot.

 

[CptTightPants21]

1. How long is the corrugated hose? I would expect Tobin's to measure 16 inches which should be about right. Give it a few dives to see how you adjust, it can seem VERY short, especially if you just switched from a jacket BC that had a 20 something hose the dangled everywhere. If it is perpetually over my shoulder can't find it level short (like the 12 inch hoses on some Oxycheq wings, then we can address the issue)

2. I prefer the the 5lb trim pockets threaded onto the Cam bands over the weight belt. I have only used a weight belt sparingly so I will let others give a better answer. Go in a shallow area, undo the weight belt, and pull it out at 90 degrees with you arm moving like you are doing a jumping jack. It should move freely. You might need to loosen he crouch strap a hair. I have removed and put on a weight belt underwater once or twice and I don't really remember it getting snagged with the crotch strap...but maybe I just have selective memory.

3. Slightly overweight is ok. Weighting is a process. You will ditch even more weight as you become more experienced

4. Yes, you move weight and the tank placement to achieve better trim. Some dives do put weight on their chest/upper area if they are feet heavy. When you are first starting out it is a little difficult to distinguish between just bad form (or inexperienced form) and a needed shifting of weight. You can play around with it a little, but this is something where a quality instructor can really assist you and pay dividends.