A little confused about overhead environment

[Reg Braithwaite]

reg, the thing that makes the discussion basic is that a new diver asked it.

i'm not suggesting every new diver go or prohibiting any from going, but brand new people dive ginnie ballroom every day and it's great that he's finding out all that is involved in this decision.

I agree that it is great that people understand what is involved, and I agree it is on-topic to point out the risks and considerations. I do feel, however that the fact that a new diver asks a question or that brand new divers do it does not make it basic scuba. This is cavern diving. It is not basic scuba in any way, shape or form.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Is it me or are most of the divers in that video diving a single tank? I think I saw one set of doubles. And how is the location in the video NOT a cave? I have heard a number of people arguing that this is not a cave???? In a tunnel about 6 or 8 feet high.....describes a cave to me. My previous post stands.....I do not think ANY OW diver should be in there.....not what is in the video anyways. Just ridiculous to be arguing that it is actually OK IMNSHO.

To me it sounds as if you've never been here. Visiting this particular location (...and having overhead training on your part, since it sounds like you don't) would probably help put that dive in context. As one of the divers in the video, and as someone with overhead training, I think I'm qualified to answer.

We did the dive at night, with the light on outside just like BabyDuck mentioned. All divers in question had a least two high-quality lights (HIDs/standard 3C-cell backups -- Scouts or PT-LEDs), and the video lights used with the video setup lit the place up like the sun, although it doesn't quite look like it in the video.

Ginnie Ballroom is actually quite large (I'd guess ~75ft wide at it's widest?), unfortunately the video doesn't show that very well. It's actually quite a large room. The water is crystal clear, and an entire class of OW students roto-tilling the bottom couldn't silt it out if they tried. The "silt" is heavy sand that immediately falls to the bottom if it's kicked up.

The 3 of us in singles were on full 130s, and we left with 2/3rd's of our cylinders remaining (rule of thirds...), enough for a second dive in the Ballroom. A line was run in from open water and tied into the large 'rope' going through the middle of the cavern. The diver on doubles plus the diver filming were both full cave by this point, and the three of us on singles were headed that direction (I did NAUI Cave 1 this summer, the two girls will probably take a cave course this coming year). The 3 of us all had our diving training in a university setting where buoyancy control, trim, and non-silting propulsion techniques are standard and are taught by a cave instructor with ~40 years of cave diving experience -- and he teaches his OW classes as if his students will all be cave divers.

If you look closely, note that all of us maintained horizontal trim (even the girls, who were relatively newish at this point with maybe 40-50 dives, had decent trim 95% of the time), good buoyancy control, and non-silting kicks. Yes there was the occasional bump on the ceiling but that was about it.



My point is this -- even though the three of us weren't even cavern trained at the time, we had a higher set of basic fundamental skills than 90% of people that dive the Ballroom, and I would bet that includes plenty of "cavern" and "cave" divers. Just because someone is cave certified doesn't mean they are a good diver...certification does not = qualification.

Since we were all comfortable with buoyancy/trim/non-silting kicks, what else was missing from our skillset? I had done a bit of line running, the girls hadn't...that was about it. Since the line was run by one of the cave divers, that was a moot point. Everything else was essentially already taught in our OW classes. While I wouldn't trust just any brand new OW diver in the Ballroom, I would say that a majority of students coming out of the diving program at our university would easily be able to do the Ballroom as their first dive out of OW with little issues.


Ginnie Ballroom is honestly a "nothing" dive. If you can't do the Ballroom, you probably shouldn't be diving...

 

[ScubaSteve]

Thanks for the explanation Sparticle. While I do appreciate your explanation, I still disagree about an overhead environment being suitable for an OW diver with 10 dives. You are right I have never dove Ginnie and I have no Cave experience which is good because I am not cave certified. Even with your explanation, I still find it hard to believe that what I saw as The Ballrom is a nothing dive considering most of that video was done in short (floor to ceiling) areas where one could bump their tank (that pretty much spells overhead in my opinion). I am basing this "Ginnie - The Ballroom" decision only on what I saw but my opinion of what an OW diver with 10 dives should do is unlikely to change.

 

[SparticleBrane]

That's probably because you've never seen divers who have been trained, from the beginning, to have good trim, buoyancy control, and non-silting kicks, and who are actually comfortable in the water, especially compared to the "divers" that come from 99% of OW classes.

 

[D_B]

I agree that it is great that people understand what is involved, and I agree it is on-topic to point out the risks and considerations. I do feel, however that the fact that a new diver asks a question or that brand new divers do it does not make it basic scuba. This is cavern diving. It is not basic scuba in any way, shape or form.

"A little confused about overhead environment"
This question needs to stay right where it is, because more basic OW divers will see it here, learn from the responses

 

[ScubaSteve]

That's probably because you've never seen divers who have been trained, from the beginning, to have good trim, buoyancy control, and non-silting kicks, and who are actually comfortable in the water, especially compared to the "divers" that come from 99% of OW classes.

No, it is actually because of the rock ceiling above the divers in that video. I am assuming that you are Cave Certified? With that training you know that cave training is much more than just to have good trim, buoyancy control, and non-silting kicks, and who are actually comfortable in the water.....I am all of those things as are many other divers. I am sorry to say this but the two divers that were found dead in the Waynes World system were instructors and master divers. In theory, they should be all of those things that you mention. Yet they both perished. Neither had sufficient training yet had lots of experience (OW instructing as well). They went beyond their training and unfortunately perished. This does not happen every time but it happens far too often when people tempt fate by getting in over their heads.

It is easy for a diver to say 1) "Nothing happened last time so just a little farther this time". It is tougher (and impossible for some) for a diver to put their pride aside and say 2) "I will pass on that because it exceeds my training and I love my family and friends too much to do that to them". Until I am properly trained, I will stay within my training and comfort level.

But this is just my outlook and it is ultimately up to the individual diver to decide if they choose the first or the second statement from above. Only the diver can decide for themselves.

 

[TSandM]

I agree with you, Steve. I've dived the Ballroom. As described, it is a pretty trivial dive for someone with the experience to handle minor problems underwater. It is, however, an overhead environment, and I don't think an overhead environment -- ANY overhead environment -- is a place for a diver with ten dives. I think it's really important to have done enough diving to know how you handle things when they don't go as they should, before you put yourself in a position where remaining calm in the face of a problem is a truly critical quality.

Although I have argued that the guided cenote dives in Mexico ARE okay for open water divers, I have also tried to discourage the very novice ones from doing them. Even with a guide who is full cave and an instructor, you are counting very heavily on his assistance to help solve any significant issues that might occur, if you don't have enough experience and practice to know that you can solve them yourself.

Nobody knows what his response will be to a problem, until he's had the experience. A very well trained and very water-experienced (although not diving experienced) friend had a completely unexpected panic event to his first mask flood, and it really impressed upon me that, until you have encountered some inconveniences, you simply don't know what you'll do. Panic in open water is bad. Panic in an overhead environment can be lethal.

 

[SparticleBrane]

No, it is actually because of the rock ceiling above the divers in that video. I am assuming that you are Cave Certified? With that training you know that cave training is much more than just to have good trim, buoyancy control, and non-silting kicks, and who are actually comfortable in the water.....I am all of those things as are many other divers.

99% of the diving community does not possess any of what I just mentioned. Plenty of cave instructors have to teach these basic things when people come to their cavern/cave classes. In fact, sometimes that's a majority of what they teach...

I am sorry to say this but the two divers that were found dead in the Waynes World system were instructors and master divers. In theory, they should be all of those things that you mention. Yet they both perished. Neither had sufficient training yet had lots of experience (OW instructing as well). They went beyond their training and unfortunately perished. This does not happen every time but it happens far too often when people tempt fate by getting in over their heads.

Being an open water instructor means nothing, especially in regards to an overhead environment. Plenty of OW students with <10 dives that come out of the program at my university have better fundamental in-water skills than many instructors I've seen. Obviously they lack both diving experience and leadership experience (again, something many instructors lack...) but they'll get there. Would it be the best idea for them to immediately go into the Ballroom? No...but they would probably be better off, skills-wise, than plenty of people who dive there.


Out of the two that died in Wayne's World, one was an OW instructor. The other diver had been certified <1 year and attended a cavern class but didn't complete it due to sustaining a back injury. They were both way, way over their heads, diving in a complex cave system known for low visibility and nasty conditions. Ginnie Ballroom is quite literally the opposite of Wayne's World -- it pumps the cleanest water you've ever seen and is practically impossible to silt out.

I'm not advocating that OW divers go into Ginnie -- most "divers" lack basic fundamental skills. While 99.9999% of them will be alright in the Ballroom (even standing up waving their hands about plowin' the north 40), there are some people who go into it that shouldn't. I would lose way more sleep thinking about the hundreds of thousands of people that will die each year as a direct result of smoking, heart conditions, obesity, diabetes, or car wrecks, than the occasional diver who eats it in Ginnie Ballroom.

 

[texdiveguy]

Panic in open water is bad. Panic in an overhead environment can be lethal.

Let's clear this up...PANIC in either open water or a solid or soft overhead can be lethal.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Let's clear this up...PANIC in either open water or a solid or soft overhead can be lethal.

Yes...
And quite honestly, a mask flooding shouldn't be more than an inconvenience. Practicing breathing without a mask on a regular basis (eg: before every dive...) will cure this issue fairly quickly. It's especially important in colder water. Did I do it in 85F water in Truk? No, that should be a walk in the park. Before a cave dive? You betcha. Before a dive in a chilly quarry? Yup. It's actually quite relaxing once you get over the initial "punched in the face" feeling (if it's especially cold water).