A little confused about overhead environment

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree with Sparticlebrane that Ginnie is clearly is a cavern not a cave - that is evident if you have ever dove in it as you can either see the entrance or the glow from the entrance either directly or indirectly from anywhere in the cavern.

I also disagree in that I have been in and through the restiction on the left and technically it is still in the light zone once your eyes adapt. The issue of a newby diver wedging themselves in there is another issue that can be a valid threat regardless of whether you call it a cavern or a cave.

I also came out of a college program and I agree with Sparticlebrane that they potentially produce a much higher caliber of diver. When you spend an entire semester of classroom, pool and OW instruction to get an OW cert, you learn an awful lot more than you ever pick up in the average PADI, SSI, NAUI OW course. Not all courses and not all instructors are created equal.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

I think it is completely irrelevant what the basic OW certification *ought* to teach and what OW divers with ten dives *ought* to be capable of doing. What matters when making a general statement on the Internet is what the OW certification actually teaches and what divers with that certification actually are capable of doing.

I do not disagree that *some* divers may be safe in a cavern environment after receiving a certain kind of training. This is an exception and not a rule. I also do not disagree that some divers may have what it takes to be safe in a cavern environment after a few dives even when trained in the popular manner. Some divers. and again, an exception and not a rule.

However--and I point this out to divers with more experience and training with great respect--a cavern is not a basic dive, and it is not a nothing dive. Furthermore, the fact that a panic or mask flood could lead to an accident in OW, in even twenty feet on a brightly lit reef say, this does not mean that there is no difference between panic in a cavern and panic in OW. This does not mean the dives are equivalent.

No dive where an uncontrolled ascent can lead to head trauma is a basic dive. No dive where dropping your weight belt cannot solve all buoyancy problems is a basic dive.

Should explaining this belong here? Sure. Should counseling people to do this dive belong here? No. If you want to tell people it is a nothing dive, I think you should tell them that in the advanced or cave areas and let them decide for themselves they are ready to do advanced diving.

I have said this already, and I see you wish to read something new, so I will not say it again. Be well and be safe.

 

[Kern]

You guy's would love Fish Rock Cave at Sth. West Rocks. This is 1 of the top dive sites on the NSW mid north coast. Many hundreds of OW divers do this dive every year & have done so for around 2 decades.

South West Rocks Dive Centre

Home - Fish Rock Dive Centre at South West Rocks

famous for Fish Rock cave,

[/QUOTE]

 

[ScubaSteve]

Every once in a while you stumble onto a thread and are simply amazed at just how irresponsible (my opinion only) other divers can be in how they approach posting responses to NEW divers on ScubaBoard. Do they think they are being funny? Do they think they are being cool? Are they showing off their "vast knowledge"? Or do they just simply not care that they risk convincing some new (I reference the two posts on the first page of this thread including the OP) diver to go way beyond their training and possibly die? And it also amazes me how those very same people who just a day earlier impressed you with the quality of information and advice that they passed along to new divers in response to another question on ScubaBoard.

Obviously, this is just my opinion but I am still amazed.

Off

 

[RJP]

If everything goes dark they simply inflate their BCD and rise to the surface, emergency over.

If you inflate your BCD to "rise to the surface" the emergency may just be getting started.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I agree with Sparticlebrane that Ginnie is clearly is a cavern not a cave - that is evident if you have ever dove in it as you can either see the entrance or the glow from the entrance either directly or indirectly from anywhere in the cavern.

I also disagree in that I have been in and through the restiction on the left and technically it is still in the light zone once your eyes adapt. The issue of a newby diver wedging themselves in there is another issue that can be a valid threat regardless of whether you call it a cavern or a cave.

I don't post responses to where certain things are in public forums, but I guess it's out there now. Fortunately, that area doesn't go too far. However, whether you agree or not, if you get in there far enough, you cannot see any light.


As for "OW safe" caverns, I'll post these questions:

1. Would you know what to do if the cavern suddenly became silted out?
While not likely in Ginnie, it is possible. Collapses still happen and one can happen in the grated cave that would cause the cavern to become and remain silted out for hours.

2. Do you know how to properly deal with an OOA situation without losing buoyancy control?
In other words, what happens when you become task loaded? Do you automatically become positive and begin to rise. Most do, and in an overhead, that's not a good thing.

3. Do you know what to do if you lose your mask?
It happens. A quick fin kick to the face and it's gone. Can you get out without a mask? Sure, you can depend on your buddy to help you out, but what's the training level of your buddy?


People have died in the "OW friendly" caverns!

Please don't recommend OW divers go into them without proper training. I don't care what you've done and survived. It's just plain stupid! One thing leads to another, and then we have more dead divers and another bad mark on the cave diving community even though the divers that died weren't cave divers!!!

 

[ianr33]

To me it sounds as if you've never been here. Visiting this particular location (...and having overhead training on your part, since it sounds like you don't) would probably help put that dive in context. As one of the divers in the video, and as someone with overhead training, I think I'm qualified to answer.

We did the dive at night, with the light on outside just like BabyDuck mentioned. All divers in question had a least two high-quality lights (HIDs/standard 3C-cell backups -- Scouts or PT-LEDs), and the video lights used with the video setup lit the place up like the sun, although it doesn't quite look like it in the video.

Ginnie Ballroom is actually quite large (I'd guess ~75ft wide at it's widest?), unfortunately the video doesn't show that very well. It's actually quite a large room. The water is crystal clear, and an entire class of OW students roto-tilling the bottom couldn't silt it out if they tried. The "silt" is heavy sand that immediately falls to the bottom if it's kicked up.

The 3 of us in singles were on full 130s, and we left with 2/3rd's of our cylinders remaining (rule of thirds...), enough for a second dive in the Ballroom. A line was run in from open water and tied into the large 'rope' going through the middle of the cavern. The diver on doubles plus the diver filming were both full cave by this point, and the three of us on singles were headed that direction (I did NAUI Cave 1 this summer, the two girls will probably take a cave course this coming year). The 3 of us all had our diving training in a university setting where buoyancy control, trim, and non-silting propulsion techniques are standard and are taught by a cave instructor with ~40 years of cave diving experience -- and he teaches his OW classes as if his students will all be cave divers.

If you look closely, note that all of us maintained horizontal trim (even the girls, who were relatively newish at this point with maybe 40-50 dives, had decent trim 95% of the time), good buoyancy control, and non-silting kicks. Yes there was the occasional bump on the ceiling but that was about it.



My point is this -- even though the three of us weren't even cavern trained at the time, we had a higher set of basic fundamental skills than 90% of people that dive the Ballroom, and I would bet that includes plenty of "cavern" and "cave" divers. Just because someone is cave certified doesn't mean they are a good diver...certification does not = qualification.

Since we were all comfortable with buoyancy/trim/non-silting kicks, what else was missing from our skillset? I had done a bit of line running, the girls hadn't...that was about it. Since the line was run by one of the cave divers, that was a moot point. Everything else was essentially already taught in our OW classes. While I wouldn't trust just any brand new OW diver in the Ballroom, I would say that a majority of students coming out of the diving program at our university would easily be able to do the Ballroom as their first dive out of OW with little issues.


Ginnie Ballroom is honestly a "nothing" dive. If you can't do the Ballroom, you probably shouldn't be diving...

So you are saying that it is OK for a "DIR practitioner" to dive in an overhead environment beyond their training level as you have superior skills and are comfortable with the dive?

 

[piikki]

99% of the diving community does not possess any of what I just mentioned.

Is the attitude your students get trained with in the superhero 1-percentile too?

It's kind of scary to start off beating everybody by that much because more often than not that puts you exactly in the risk group... Then you can go do what others shouldn't but you can - because you are so above all rules.

Every once in a while you stumble onto a thread and are simply amazed at just how irresponsible (my opinion only) other divers can be in how they approach posting responses to NEW divers on ScubaBoard. Do they think they are being funny? Do they think they are being cool? Are they showing off their "vast knowledge"? Or do they just simply not care that they risk convincing some new (I reference the two posts on the first page of this thread including the OP) diver to go way beyond their training and possibly die? And it also amazes me how those very same people who just a day earlier impressed you with the quality of information and advice that they passed along to new divers in response to another question on ScubaBoard.

Obviously, this is just my opinion but I am still amazed.

Off

Yeah

 

[ianr33]

It's kind of scary to start off beating everybody by that much because more often than not that puts you exactly in the risk group... Then you can go do what others shouldn't but you can - because you are so above all rules.

Yeah

How can he be above the rules if he is Doing It Right?

The rules must be wrong

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

If you inflate your BCD to "rise to the surface" the emergency may just be getting started.

You are correct that is not a safe way to surface!!!!!

That being said, untrained people do funny things under pressure. Some of those things might get them hurt. But a bent diver on the surface has a far better chance of survival than a diver with a head trauma pinned to the ceiling of the "easy cavern."

No matter what you teach someone in a cattle drive style OW class, they are going to do certain things when they run into trouble under water. It may be a simple matter do deal with the lights going out for an experienced diver. That simple matter will kill a certain percentage of OW divers should you take away the option of surfacing.

The whole point of this post is that a number of OW divers lack certain skills you may take for granted. Also, even if they can display those skills in a checkout dive, a certain number of divers will not display them under pressure.

If you place them in the water and problem takes place, I suggest to you that there will be an emergency, but the survival rate will be higher in OW than in a cavern.

Now that being said, I am appalled at myself for writing something that could be construed as advising someone what to do in the case of an emergency. I am going to edit that post.