A somewhat sad conversation last night

[DaleC]

As Jim said, there are those who are able to take some form of training, adopt what they need, yet remain flexible enough to adapt what they have to their own real life situations.I think this is good.

Lynne, my comments regarding "hobbled" are aimed at diving 100% DIR all the time. Most people can not/will not manipulate the recreational arena enough for this to happen. If one did, they would have a very limited exposure to the breadth and depth of recreational diving.

I will still maintain that if one is going to dive recreationally, the way many people do, one will wind up violating some of the core tenets of the DIR philosophy.

In the past, when I've gone to the DIR sub forum to ask a question about a specific gear configuration, after there has been no real reason found for it's non use, the bottom line has always been that DIR is a holistic approach and we don't cherry pick solutions based on our individual needs. I have always accepted that rationale as being completely legitimate within the context. Here, it seems the message is that one can cherry pick fundies for the skills and not really worry about that other stuff if one doesn't want to. My comment has been that fundies is the the gateway course to a holistic approach to diving that is designed to be adopted in its entirety. Doing less will leave you with some skills, true, but you won't really be getting what it was intended for. I also think there may be some unintended consequences to having a bunch of divers who have cherry picked the system diving their own way yet claiming to be DIR trained. I guess I'm looking at the up side and the down side.


I find this funny because one time I jokingly said I would take the DIR solo course when it was available. At the time I thought my money was safe but, if enough of us grouped together and took the training with only improving our skills in mind...

 

[arthurmnev]

I to will say I got a pm from a DIR diver told me that I was a PADI diver so I was not a diver

I would screenshot it and post it for it is this type of an attitude that gives DIR community the bad name. As I said before, I believe some DIR guidelines are sound and make perfect sense, but what I cant stand is the attitude of some people if you dare to disagree with their binary approach to the diving world.

 

[danvolker]

I would screenshot it and post it for it is this type of an attitude that gives DIR community the bad name. As I said before, I believe some DIR guidelines are sound and make perfect sense, but what I cant stand is the attitude of some people if you dare to disagree with their binary approach to the diving world.

Arthur, this is not a typical DIR diver attitude....that was a guy that was a D*ck....he would be this whether he took a DIR course, a Stroke course, a PADI course, or whatever....there are jerks in our population...a lot of them.

 

[TSandM]

I will still maintain that if one is going to dive recreationally, the way many people do, one will wind up violating some of the core tenets of the DIR philosophy.​

I think it was JeffG who said that there are no DIR divers, only DIR dives. There's a lot of truth to that. If I climb on a dive boat in Hawaii by myself, and there is no one else on the boat who dives the way I do, I can't really dive as a unified team. I have violated the idea of standardization -- and Jarrod recently gave an interview where he said that he views standardization itself, even more than WHAT you standardize on, as a core value. It's likely that I will be diving a different gas from my instabuddy, because I really do dive Nitrox for all recreational dives. I may have trouble finding someone who wants to dive with me, because I keep my END to 100 feet -- in my case, because I have tested and proven over and over again that I'm just plain farm animal stupid below that.

But I don't see that as a drawback of the system. I see it as a reality that people who choose the system have to recognize; we will not always be able to dive the way we prefer to dive, if we range outside the areas where there are a lot of people with whom we can connect. Dale, you appear to view this as something about the GUE system that ought to be changed; how would you change it?

 

[Ragnar]

Read my signature. Almost all of the problems with the undesirable DIR attitude exist only online, ignore them. Sure, you'll meet random people that should be choked, but that happens most every time I leave the house not just when diving

 

[Adobo]

In the past, when I've gone to the DIR sub forum to ask a question about a specific gear configuration, after there has been no real reason found for it's non use, the bottom line has always been that DIR is a holistic approach and we don't cherry pick solutions based on our individual needs. I have always accepted that rationale as being completely legitimate within the context. Here, it seems the message is that one can cherry pick fundies for the skills and not really worry about that other stuff if one doesn't want to. My comment has been that fundies is the the gateway course to a holistic approach to diving that is designed to be adopted in its entirety. Doing less will leave you with some skills, true, but you won't really be getting what it was intended for. I also think there may be some unintended consequences to having a bunch of divers who have cherry picked the system diving their own way yet claiming to be DIR trained. I guess I'm looking at the up side and the down side.

My exchange with you started when with this "taking fundies twice and it costing upwards of $4k" business. My assertion has always been that throwing numbers around like $2k or $4k for divers with local instructors is completely far fetched for Fundies. I don't see how that somehow meandered to "cherry picking" from the system. In fact, I don't even see where anyone is suggesting anything resembling cherry picking.

Part of the problem with learning about GUE style diving from the interwebs is you might get the letter of the recommendations but not the spirit. One of the reasons I personally discourage people from "cherry picking" from the system is that the people who want to cherry pick frequently don't understand the unintended consequences of cherry picking. Example, what is the point of having a long hose when you are a solo diver?

On the other hand, adhering to every GUE recommendation to the letter without applying some common sense is also stupid. I know of a GUE diver who got bent out of shape when other GUE divers were diving nitrox a couple of percentage points outside of the GUE standard of 32%. I mean, you need a shovel to get deeper than 60ft at this particular dive site. Talk about not "getting it". I heard a GUE instructor say once, "we do what is recommended unless what is recommended doesn't make sense. Then we do something else."

Fundies is an intro into a diving approach that is holistic. There, the instructor teaches you things like standardized gases (which for recreational diving means 32%). They teach you about effective team diving. They teach stuff that I am amazed so many divers get by without in their recreational diving.

If in your interwebs research, you have walked away with the idea that since I have dived a non-standard gas (the past year, I've used air, 27/27, nitrox that deviated from 32% as much as 2%, etc) or dived with a non GUE diver (10ish dives in Hawaii with random insta buddies) that I was cherry picking from the system, then I would suggest that the interwebs is giving you a twisted idea of what GUE diving is.

 

[lowviz]

...//... One of the reasons I personally discourage people from "cherry picking" from the system is that the people who want to cherry pick frequently don't understand the unintended consequences of cherry picking. Example, what is the point of having a long hose when you are a solo diver? ...//...

1) Lost reg recovery is trivial at worst

2) diving solo is no guarantee of never happening upon a needy diver

 

[Fish-R-Man]

IMHO – The concept of training individuals to work as a team is great in theory. (Before I get flamed here, I know that the concept works) The actual practice depends on what constitutes that “team”. If all of the training that DIR undertake is based on a team effort, the team is only as good as its weakest link. If that link fails, what happens to the team?

I approach my style of diving and training to become as self-sufficient as possible. Not that I am against the concept of a team effort, but what happens if that team fails for any number of reasons. It could be as simple as getting separated from your team members in a low viz situation and then having some kind of problem where you would have to be dependent on your own skills to remedy.

The reason that I have this approach to the style of diving that I prefer is that I have been in a couple of situations at sea where the team concept has failed. I had one incident where we had a major flooding issue on the vessel. (We took the forward windows out of the wheelhouse in crappy weather) The crew I worked with all had been trained in what to do during an emergency, we drilled regularly to make sure everyone knew what their designated tasks were. In a life and death situation, it becomes immediately apparent who will be an asset and who will not to solve the problem. Two of the five man crew completely lost it. One of them I had thought that I could depend on in any type of situation, proved me wrong. Diving with known, trusted team members has a certain level of risk. Diving with an unknown team made up of individuals that just have the same type of training has a very different risk level. Is that approach better than training to be self-sufficient?

Any training that a person takes to improve their skill level adds to their ability to solve problems while diving. For me it wouldn’t matter if it was DIR, TDI, IANTD or any other agency. For me it’s more about the individual that you are learning from and what you take from that experience. The term “cherry picked” has been used during this thread a number of times. I would have to say that I am guilty of that. I try to take away from any experience that I have, something that will help me improve my style of diving.

 

[PfcAJ]

GUE training certainly teaches you how to solve problems on your own, and the equipment gives you all the tools (and then some) to mitigate most any issue to a point of survivability (get back to the surface). The team emphasis means you don't have to do it all by yourself every single time a minor (or major) issue crops up. In my view, I look at the team as an asset. Something added to my toolbox that I wouldn't already have. I can solve most any realistic problem without assistance, but the team makes it much easier to deal with things.

I'll tell ya a story from the same dive I did about a week ago. We were on a rather complex multistage cave dive in a very silty place. The reg on a stage bottle got snagged on the line in a low section of the cave. I was able to quickly unwrap the line from it and we were off in less than 10 seconds. Without the team aspect, fixing the problem would have taken more time (deco clock is ticking...tick tock, as is your finite gas supply) and potentially reduced the vis a bunch. Could my buddy have dealt with it? Of course he could have, but I was there to take a little of the stress off him and keep things moving smoothly. This was just a very minor problem hardly worth even mentioning because it quickly became nullified within seconds. I've experienced countless little issues (and a few larger ones) and each and every time, I've found having someone there helped rather than hurt.

I don't think anyone should be completely reliant on other in the water, that would be foolhardy. But having someone else (who is competent and capable) there to assist in event of a problem can make a load of difference.

 

[lowviz]

Adding to that thought, in the absence of a problem, I got a taste of team value. Taking my turn as the "reel man" in a cave, I found it quite nice that beautiful secondary tie-offs magically appeared as I progressed.