A terrible decision ... (in my opinion)

[Ana]

Everyone seems to be citing his risk of Hep B infection, etc. but at the same time are ignoring the much broader public health risk that would have occurred had they waited a few days to several days to get a properly equipped commercial operation on site to do the job. Raw sewage backing up into basements and toilets all over own is more than just messy.

I agree it would’ve been more than messy. But it would’ve been far from being a freak event that no one could’ve anticipated. How come this town doesn’t have one or two commercial diving companies on their files ready to act?
Most homeowners keep a plunger in their house. When things get out of control they either look on their phonebook or call 411 for a number to a 24 hour service plumber. Cost money yes, but you either keep a good maintenance schedule paying a bit as you go, or you pay full amount for emergency repairs.

Does this town depend on the “courage” of ill prepared, well intentioned passersby to deal with a fire? Most towns have Fire Dept’s, would be totally stupid not to have them. How prepared are they for a law suit? I bet they have a couple of attorneys at the ready with a phone call, coňo if there is a puddle with 3 feet of liquid anywhere within city limits they should also have commercial divers to deal with it when necessary. I don't mean have them on their payroll 24/7, just write up an agreement that keeps the town covered, then the town next door can do the same and so on.


yeah I know, pigs will fly before this happens.

I probaly would not dive in that stuff for any of you (even with a vulcanized rubber suit and a helmet) but I'd do it for a small town friend and neighbor.

Commercial divers do it for everyone regardles of their friendliness level, as long as they get paid.

I'd cut the guy some slack.

I wouldn't, he already got slack and a half by walking out of this one unharmed.
The last thing he needs is to get thank you cards that lessen the stupidity of his actions.

 

[Scared Silly]

I am surprised that the "official" you spoke to would offer such an opinion. Volunteer firefighters follow the same standards as career firefighters. The person who makes $10 per hour still has to follow the same rules as the person who makes $50.

Blades, I was surprised at this as well. The person I talked to at OSHA was in Nebraska and she read through the article that was on one of the TV stations. There were a couple of factors as I mentioned he volunteered but also they are a municipality which changed things as well.

Assuming the "official" was correct, I can see a huge loop hole in labor law. For commercial diving contractors, they could pay their employees travel time, then the divers could "volunteer" to do the dive op (no safety standards needed) then go back on the clock on their drive home. Window washers could "volunteer" as they fall off the scaffold and no OSHA fine would be levied because they weren't wearing harnesses. The list could go on, and that is why I believe the "official" was mistaken.

The difference here is that this is clearly an attempt to get around the law. A better gray area would be diver shows up at a job site for prescribed work. While there they volunteer to fix something else but do not follow the SOPs and get hurt.


I think this case is a gray area. As a PSD and as a volunteer PSD he is fulfilling a roll for the city in an official capacity. OSHA might not have anything to say about it but I am sure their insurance company would.

BTW I see both sides of what folks are saying. Backed up raw sewage can be a big deal. Cities have been held liable for messes such as these. So I can certainly see why they wanted to get this fixed ASAP. It would have avoided some potential lawsuits. However, on the other hand they did as a friend likes to say - "We all do stupid things, and most of the time we get away with it. Unfortunately sometimes we do not."

 

[Desert Pirate]

Wow, I leave the board for a few days, and I have 3 freakin pages to catch up on? I have had the unpleasant job of workin on sewer lines, flooded basements, and other *****y jobs, for both ppl and livestock, and there is no way I would ever make this dive with the equipment this guy did. I have read threads on this forum before about whats the big deal with vulcanized rubber suits, dry suits, wet suits, etc.. and I have never really understood what so many seem to be concerned about..... I DO NOW!! I cant believe that city officials even let this guy in the water (term used Extremely loosley,and yes pun intended) and I cant believe OSHA isnt all over it either. My Hell, how many precautions are we required to meet as PSD's and many of us are volunteers in the purest sence of the word.. meaning that as a volunteer I dont make 10$ an hour. Some one on the board said that there are 2 commercial diving operations within 250 miles or so.. (I am from Idaho,we measure distances in time, not miles ) so to me this is 3 hours away. I dont know the time it takes to set up a commercial operation, but i would imagine they can do it in 5-6 hours, since this is what they do for a living. IMHO this is not a long time to wait to have a job done properly, safely, and in a timely manner. one day? 2 more operations within 510 miles, 2days? Im thinkin recover not rescue.... or flush not rescue or.. you get the idea
Clay

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree it would’ve been more than messy. But it would’ve been far from being a freak event that no one could’ve anticipated. How come this town doesn’t have one or two commercial diving companies on their files ready to act?
Most homeowners keep a plunger in their house. When things get out of control they either look on their phonebook or call 411 for a number to a 24 hour service plumber. Cost money yes, but you either keep a good maintenance schedule paying a bit as you go, or you pay full amount for emergency repairs.

Have you looked at a map lately? Nebraska is in the middle of the great American desert in terms of commercial diving. There is not someone in Grand Island or probably even in Nebraska who is sitting around ready to jump when the city calls to full fill a pre-arranged contract. At best they are going to drive 1000 miles to get there. My guess is also that that level of contaminated water diving is beyond the normal call and equipment of most inland commerical divers within a 1000 mile drive.

Commercial divers do it for everyone regardles of their friendliness level, as long as they get paid.

Depends on the diver and the company. In some areas of the industry (off shore oil field, etc) it's common for a commercial diver and/or company to feel pressured into a dive regardless of safety concerns because saying "no" will get them black listed with all sorts of hungry for work tenders, newly minted divers, etc waiting for a chance to get their foot in the door. In inland diving, this is a lot less common. Many inland divers are there because while the pay is less, the risks are lower and the careers are longer. Safety is an issue and so is dropping what you are doing and spending a week traveling to and from one 30 minute job when you may have other things waiting in the wings. So in this case, a commercial diver will do it, but you'd have to find them before you'd even have the chance to pay them extremely well to agree to do the job.

In light of this, I can see the fire department or municipality considering buying proper equipment for potential future problems. A vulcanized rubber dry suit suitable for contaminated water, a KM superlite helmet and associated coms and surface supplied equipment and associated training for one or two of their PSD's would be a good investment for them to consider. However, I'm not going to jump on them for failing to consider that before the fact as right or wrong, most small town city managers/mayors/council members, etc probably don't plan on spending that much money on events with a small probability of occurring.

 

[Desert Pirate]

There were two commercial diving contractors within 235 miles and two more within 510 miles and possibly some closer. If there was a urgent need, having professional commercial divers delivered by the sheriffs office helicopter (or the National Guard for that matter) could have been a better option.

Clay

 

[Zieg]

DA, just took a quick glance at the latest issue of UNDERWATER, the magazine put out buy ADCI, Association of Diving Contractors International. Let's see, they have member companies listed with 1 in Montana, 2 in Missouri, 1 in Iowa, 2 in Kansas, 2 also in Minnesota. I'm not positive, but I think some of those states are "in the middle of the great American desert in terms of commercial diving". Granted I did not see any listings for Nebraska, but I'll bet some of those boys in the neighboring states could make the drive pretty quick.

 

[Ana]

First of all if you look at the post from "BladesRobinson" he found TWO outfits within 235 miles, and TWO more within 510 miles. I'm quickly browsing at the 2008 ADCI directory and can find over 6 companies that are 500 miles or less from nebraska, looking at google earth I can spot several bodies of water. So I imagine there is the potential for bridges over water, wether the piers or bents are in the water could be debatable but the potential is there.

It is this idea that only coastal states require commercial divers that produces the scenarios we are discussing here. You don't even need to have a big body of water to require the services of a commercial diver, having accumulation of liquids is all it takes, can be static liquid or in motion.

By the way, I couldn't care less about the "hero" in question. It is what he represents that is negative and bothers me. You mention about the pressure some companies feel in order to do the job cutting curners. Guess why is that? because diving is never budgetted properly, and there is always some 'hero' ready to do it because he is an "experience diver" he has AOW or some crap like that.

In a different thread there were some kudos given to the US Navy because they rerouted an air carrier to intersect a cruiseship because of an medical emergency. There was a girl on board with apendicities and the DOCTOR on the cruise ship didn't have the proper equipment/drugs I forgot the details, they used their brain and decided it was better to wait and solve the problem the right way. I don't know a thing about medical procedures but apendicities is common enough that I'm sure it doesn't take an especialist, however this DOCTOR decided against it.

A wise thing in this case would've been also to find the proper solution. This is still a great country with the means to do things right. If this event went the way it did... fine it can't be undone. But it is necessary to recognize that it was the wrong thing to do and it can't be repeated.
I

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Apples and oranges.

The doctor lacked among other things anesthesia to do the operation. Not many docs are going to do an appendectomy under those circumstances, especially on a ruptured appendix. The girl is also lucky the carrier was in the area as in another 24-36 hours, she would have been unlikely to survive.

But if you want to go there you can look at it this way...the Navy risked the lives of the crew and a helicopter in what was for the helicopter and crew most likely a blue water operation. You can argue it was a more or less routine evolution, the navy gets paid to do that, turbine heli's are pretty reliable, the weather was good, etc, etc, etc, but the point is the Navy put at least 3 highly trained crewman (probably with families) on the line for one 15 yr old. They could have just told the doc to hold her down and start cuttin cuz we ain't coming. That would have made the papers too.

How does that compare to one volunteer PSD (who probably also volunteers to run into burning buildings) volunteering to do a dive that will prevent biologically hazardous waste from backing up into toilets and basements all over town before an as yet uncontacted, uncontracted and possibly not even immediately available or properly equipped commercial crew could arrive? People in many fields take calculated risks in their jobs every day and I a pretty sure that saying "no" or sayiung we are in the process of letting contracts to resovle the sewage problem (that we could have prevented) within the next week or so would have also made the papers along with each and every one of the health related lawsuits that would have resulted. The big picture needs to be considered in a cost benefit analysis, not just the little picture.

------

Just curious, and probably a little off topic, but what would the average PSD do if they were at a local lake and observed a boat sink in about 20 feet of water with a 3 year old trapped in the cuddy cabin? Let's assume you are alone, have equipment in the car/truck/patrol vehicle but are at least 45 minutes from having other PSD's on scene. Do you wait and do what will most likely be a recovery in 45 plus minutes or do you attempt a rescue now?

 

[Zieg]

Apples and oranges.

How does that compare to one volunteer PSD (who probably also volunteers to run into burning buildings) volunteering to do a dive that will prevent biologically hazardous waste from backing up into toilets and basements all over town before an as yet uncontacted, uncontracted and possibly not even immediately available or properly equipped commercial crew could arrive? People in many fields take calculated risks in their jobs every day and I a pretty sure that saying "no" or sayiung we are in the process of letting contracts to resovle the sewage problem (that we could have prevented) within the next week or so would have also made the papers along with each and every one of the health related lawsuits that would have resulted. The big picture needs to be considered in a cost benefit analysis, not just the little picture.

Seems to me more a case of a city taking advantage of one of it's "volunteer" people to do a job that this guy had no business doing. Reading through the other posts, it seems that the sewer system is on its last legs as it is, and costing them a bundle. So I guess that fits into your big picture of cost benefit analysis.

You're reaching when you say "uncontacted, uncontracted and possibly not even immediately available or properly equipped commercial crew".

Just curious, and probably a little off topic, but what would the average PSD do if they were at a local lake and observed a boat sink in about 20 feet of water with a 3 year old trapped in the cuddy cabin? Let's assume you are alone, have equipment in the car/truck/patrol vehicle but are at least 45 minutes from having other PSD's on scene. Do you wait and do what will most likely be a recovery in 45 plus minutes or do you attempt a rescue now?

Yep, off topic. Now who's comparing apples and oranges. What if senarios, let's see, you're walking down the street, it's midnight, ummmm, the sky is cloudy, so it might rain, but there is a chance you can score with the 3 year old's mom, ...

 

[Bob3]

I dont know the time it takes to set up a commercial operation, but i would imagine they can do it in 5-6 hours...

How about more like 15 minutes? We did a series of dam inspections where the first one took an hour from "boots down" to "rubber on the road" and had 45 minutes of video from the inspection.
A lot of outfits have a dive company on their call list; they call it an "open P.O", or open purchase order.
They already know what the dive op charges so all it takes is a phone call.
We had an open P.O. for Northern States Power (WI, MN, NE) as well as Con Ed, a few paper companies & a couple chemical plants and not to forget the USACE (Army Corps of Engineers). (locks & dams)
Also a few municipalities that had intakes & outfalls on the Mississippi River.
This was when the closest crew was in Wisconsin on Lake Michigan.

The question of public safety from backed up sewage can put things into a "gray area" (no pun intended)

OSHA usually doesn't get involved unless there's an injury or death. The Fed OSHA usually defers to the state's OSHA (if they have one).
I suspect that the situation may not have been as grave as described, but that's probably why the city didn't get busted, they had an out, even if it was a long stretch.

There's no good reason for even a small town to not have a commercial dive op on their call list.
I'll have to send that city in NE a copy of the Association of Diving Contractor's "Why use an ADC International Member Company?"