Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10

[Higgagain]

When you consider the above, you can only come to a few conclusions. The most obvious and logical is that Ben executed a dive and got lost in a very complex and dangerous cave system. The next most logical conclusion is that Ben is perpetrating a fraud. If this was FraudBoard, or HoaxBoard, then we would be discussing the other possibilities, but this is scubaboard.

It was either on this forum, or the CaveDiver.net forum, but there was a diver who posted stating he saw Ben heading into the cave on Wednesday, while he (the diver) was headed out of the cave.

 

[RhinoGuy]

I am not a cave diver and dont plan on getting into it. But, I would like to thank everybody for their input. I feel wiser after reading this thread.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Bashing of Ben or the family/friends? I do not really see much of either overall. I think for the most part people have kept their cool. What has happened is typical and nothing different than any thread IMO.

I do agree that a couple of posts were uncalled for but that is absolutely not uncommon in threads like this.

Steve I agree with some of it. I just think any arguing with the family is tasteless. They are emotional wrecks while we are not. I see no need to argue with them about it. we can answer their question without a lot of the attitude I have seen. I just see it as what if it was my family. They are not to blame for this, if that makes sense.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Steve I agree with some of it. I just think any arguing with the family is tasteless. They are emotional wrecks while we are not. I see no need to argue with them about it. we can answer their question without a lot of the attitude I have seen. I just see it as what if it was my family. They are not to blame for this, if that makes sense.

100% agree Kevin. I think this thread has been good so far and I am not sure if much else will come considering the situation, so closing it might not be a bad idea. But, unfortunately if the family is unwilling to sit on the sidelines of this thread (or go to the Passing sthread instead), they will not like the results. They will fight and untilmately take exception of things that they should not take exception to. These "arguments" would not take place if they refused to push back. No harm or foul is intended and that has been said. The passing thread is the place for them. Not here.

 

[diverdoug1]

Is there a place for, or benefit of HARSH criticism of a diver's actions and judgement in an accident analysis thread such as this? Although some feel there is no place for anything but the presentation of hard facts in this forum, I feel there is a tangible benefit of the stern words directed at poor decision making and also the divers who made them. The benefit is to encourage others not to make the same mistakes. Discussions like this may have kept me from getting hurt or killed. Before I became cave certified, I was young and fancied myself a hotshot dive instructor. I read everything about cave diving that I could get my hands on. I thought that surely there was little that a cave course could offer that I had not already learned on my own (does this sound familiar?). The one thing that cave diving training could possibly give me was the stupid certification card. But then this nagging voice in the back of my head kept telling me...on the increadibly small chance something did in fact happen, all those pompus cavers down at the springs would be saying how stupid I was, and that if I had only had training I would have been fine (what hogwash..I already knew it all). But I was not going to give them the satisfaction if some tragedy occured that Sheck Exley himself could not escape (which was the only thing that could happen to an OW instructor such as myself) I would not be mocked for not being certified. Well.....after the first hour of training, I began to reevaluate my motivaton for geting trained. Those cavers I overheard trash talking the dead diver probably saved my life. Maybe some noob diver will read this thread and get inspired.

 

[Divedoggie]

Hey John....why not just close this "fiasco" of a thread. The rational accident analysis that it was intended to be continues on other less volitale venues. This thread has turned into an "us vs. them" mentality that serves no productive purpose for the dive community or for the family and friends.

Just my humble opinion and my last post in this thread.

This thread is still very informative. Don't close it.

I've read every post on this thread as it developed. There are divers who regularily read and post on Scubaboard who are frustrated and angry because they they don't like the chain of events and facts that have been revealed. They feel helpless, have unanswered questions, etc, so they state their frustrations in slightly harsh tones.

I haven't read very much bashing on here. There is quite a bit of analysis, some speculation, some hypothesis, and a sprinkeling of updates to the situation.
Because all divers are taught some very basic rules, we as a group see numerous violations in those basic rules and it frustrates us.
The rules of cave diving go well beyond the rules of basic diving, and there a numerous rules that have been violated there as well, which frustrates people.

It is impossible to analyse the situation without analyzing the decision process that lead Ben into the quandry that was the impetus for this entire thread even existing. If the analysis of that decision making process is interpreted as bashing the person, then I'm sure everyone who posted something to that effect is sorry.
It is inextricably part of the analysis though.

I truly hope that updates and conversation continue on this thread.

 

[Higgagain]

Is there a place for, or benefit of HARSH criticism of a diver's actions and judgement in an accident analysis thread such as this? Although some feel there is no place for anything but the presentation of hard facts in this forum, I feel there is a tangible benefit of the stern words directed at poor decisinon making and also the divers who made them. The benefit is to encourage others not to make the sme mistakes. Discussions like this may have kept me from getting hurt or killed. Before I became cave certified, I was young and fancied myself a hotshot dive instructor. I read everything about cave diving that I could get my hands on. I thought that surely there was little that a cave course could offer that I had not already learned on my own (does this sound familiar?). The one thing that cave diving training could possibly give me was the stupid certification card. But then this nagging voice in the back of my head kept telling me...on the increadibly small chance something did in fact happen, all those pompus cavers would be saying how stupid I was, and that if I had only had training I would have been fine (what hogwash..I already knew it all). But I was not going to give them the satisfaction if some tragedy occured that Sheck Exley himself could not escape (which was the only thing that could happen to an OW instructor such as myself) I would not be mocked for not being certified. Well.....after the first hour of training, I began to reevaluate my motivaton for geting trained. Those cavers I overheard trash talking the dead diver probably saved my life. Maybe some noob diver will read this thread and get inspired.

I think a lot of it has to do with perception of what is being said. For those in the community, it is easy for us to look at other divers, and even ourselves and say this or that was stupid. This person made bad choices for doing this, or that. But for family and friends, their perception is based off the person they knew in everyday life. Some may have known of his exploits, others may not. So to them, comments made my those who do what their friend did and died doing, can seem like a personal attack.

This is a terrible tragedy, that could have been prevented. The death of a diver, makes us look at the actions of our own past and we realize how lucky some of us have been. I have personally made some EXTREMELY stupid mistakes in the past that I was fortunate to walk away from, whether by shear stupid luck or the hand of God. Whatever you may believe. When incidents like this happen, it brings to the forefront every time I have made a poor decision, or slightly bent a rule, or just completely ignored something I was taught.

 

[alohagal]

Steve I agree with some of it. I just think any arguing with the family is tasteless. They are emotional wrecks while we are not. I see no need to argue with them about it. we can answer their question without a lot of the attitude I have seen. I just see it as what if it was my family. They are not to blame for this, if that makes sense.

Kevin...you are absolutely right. I have read every post on this thread and NO other. If I was a friend or family member...I would think that BEN has been personally assaulted here by some people. Those who claim otherwise are too biased in their position to see it.

Many people, in the know, are looking elsewhere. They are cross posting as if all the information has been disseminated into this particular thread. IT HAS NOT. And therefore it doesn't come across as succinctly and obviously as it might elsewhere.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Since I believe the fall of this thread has begun, I wish to convey to the family and friends of Ben, I am truly sorry for the situation that you are in (I hesitate to say loss because there is still hope). I speak for myself in saying that the words spoken in this thread by me have never been intended to question Ben or his family/friends as people. Decisions were made and we are where we are. I hope for a positive outcome in this story.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Kevin...you are absolutely right. I have read every post on this thread and NO other. If I was a friend or family member...I would think that BEN has been personally assaulted here by some people. Those who claim otherwise are too biased in their position to see it.

Many people, in the know, are looking elsewhere. They are cross posting as if all the information has been disseminated into this particular thread. IT HAS NOT. And therefore it doesn't come across as succinctly and obviously as it might elsewhere.

Yes but Mary that is the case with every single accident thread out there. There is always someone who lost someone who does not want to hear what is being said. I have seen nothing in this thread that I would call anything close to assault of personality on Ben. I think that people are too emotionally invested in this and are seeing things that are not there.