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Advanced training questions

Discussion in 'Basic Scuba Discussions' started by Donpedro, May 4, 2014.

  1. Bob DBF

    Bob DBF Solo Diver

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: NorCal
    7,260
    8,804
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    The problem is that the OP needs a card that will allow him to deep dive on a boat that has a zero tolerance stand on diving below the recommended limit of your certification. GUE and UTD may very well be fine classes, however they will have him sitting on the boat instead of diving.



    Bob
    -------------------------------------
    The day I can't dive anymore, I will really need some other good reasons to stay alive. DarkAbyss
     
    eelnoraa, nimoh and BCSGratefulDiver like this.
  2. AfterDark

    AfterDark Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Rhode Island, USA
    9,341
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    I agree with you, I know zip about GUE/UTD but if they teach, dive planning, gas planning, ascent procedure, emergency procedure, equipment, buoyancy control, trim, team diving, situational awareness, and other essential skills .........IMO they are already far and away better than the joke I took called PADI AOW 2 years ago. I'm not sure the student that wanted the pink BCD because it was pink would have caught on to those concepts but then that student shouldn't have an AOW card either.....IMO.

    Nav can be self taught especially if practiced on land 1st. With GPS you can even check how well you're are doing using your compass; just don't cheat! :wink:

    Seems to me also the skills mentioned would be very useful in a Deep diving course. The deep diving in the AOW I took consisted of a short talk about narcosis, colors a little mention of using more air and a dive to 100' at a place I've been diving since I was 16 years old I'll 60 in a week or so. The week before I'd been diving the U853 @ 130fsw.

    Diving deep is more common sense, diving physics and theory. After that most of the skills mentioned are easily self taught. We had no BCDs when I got certified. How did I learn to use it? Self taught. I didn't have a SPG for sometime after I started diving it was more of a luxury back then, so air management was something you learned or got yourself in trouble. When that air came hard you had 300psi left after pulling the reserve rod to open the Jvalve, you should have been well on your back already! My 1st ice dive was done without a SPG. None of these skills are hard to learn.

    ---------- Post added May 8th, 2014 at 10:16 AM ----------

    That was the only reason I paid for the AOW joke to show some joker the card so I can do what I've been doing all my life.
     
  3. BCSGratefulDiver

    BCSGratefulDiver Mental toss flycoon ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: On the Fun Side of Trump's Wall
    74,391
    59,607
    113
    Regardless of agency, buoyancy control is an essential part of the class standards. If the class is taught as it's meant to be taught, the essentials of buoyancy control are included in the class. Unfortunately, in the real world that doesn't happen due to time and cost constraints ... buoyancy control isn't a skill that can be demonstrated once and checked off the list, it's an ongoing continuum of "mastery" that requires multiple dives worth of practice to properly develop, even for the occasional tourist diver. It often gets overlooked in OW class due to the manner in which those classes teach skills (while kneeling). Fortunately, PADI has adopted new standards that should encourage better buoyancy skills by training divers while hovering.

    A properly taught class emphasizes buoyancy control on every dive ... regardless of what else is being taught. It's like breathing ... something you need to do all the time, regardless of what else you're doing. It cannot be segregated from other skills.

    Some level of gas planning needs to be taught to all divers. Read your DAN statistics again ... something like 40% of all diving accidents, at all levels, have OOA/LOA as either the primary or proximate cause. Team diving isn't needed for the vacation diver, since they mostly dive in herds with a dive guide as the herd leader. However, a great many accidents involving vacation divers also list buddy separation as a primary or proximate cause, which would indicate that some level of team skills should be taught even to the diver who is only going to be involved in diving with a group, and with a dive guide. Either that or there should be more emphasis on self-sufficiency at the entry level training.

    ... Bob (Grateful Diver)
     
  4. Steve_C

    Steve_C Divemaster

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Raleigh, NC USA
    4,199
    2,844
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    I started out as a vacation diver. I have maybe two herd dives total and that was on a cruise and I did not like it since the herd was rushing on ahead and I wanted to look at stuff. But to be honest my buddy and I said the hell with it and followed along at our own pace and met the herd back at the boat.

    The point is that there is lots of vacation diving such as in the Keys that may not be herd diving. Instabuddy yes, herd maybe not.

    I probably should add a couple drift dives of WPB which were supposed to have a group guide but the guide/herd disappeared before my buddy was ready so again we just went as a buddy pair. Divers need to be ready to be herdless and be able to cope with it.
     
  5. BCSGratefulDiver

    BCSGratefulDiver Mental toss flycoon ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: On the Fun Side of Trump's Wall
    74,391
    59,607
    113
    ... actually Steve, that's exactly what I said in the sentences directly following the one you quoted ...

    ... Bob (Grateful Diver)
     
  6. Steve_C

    Steve_C Divemaster

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Raleigh, NC USA
    4,199
    2,844
    113
    You're right. Sorry about that.
     
  7. TSandM

    TSandM Missed and loved by many. Rest in Peace

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    My husband teaches AOW, but it's one of his least favorite classes to teach here in Puget Sound. He'd love it, if the Deep dive weren't mandatory. Few students presenting for AOW have the skills you'd ideally like to see someone have to do deep dives. They can't control descents well enough to keep a buddy pair together, without going down a line. Their SAC rates are too high, mostly due to inefficient diving technique. Buoyancy control may be pretty decent at depth, but gets shaky in the shallows, where you want the most control at the end of a deep dive. And unless they went through our OW class or Peter's Nitrox class, they have no sense of gas management at all. You can't fix all of that in a single dive, or often in the three which are the maximum you get before you take the student deep (unless you want to schedule the Deep dive on a day of its own, anyway).

    I'd like to see divers do a Fundies-like, intensive class on buoyancy, buddy skills, situational awareness, and gas management, before taking AOW. Or better yet, create an AOW that teaches THOSE things, and then let the student go on to do navigation and deep after he's had a chance to do a bit of diving at the OW level to solidify those skills.

    I realize the OP's question really has to do with access. But the real question is, is that access wise?
     
    Jim Lapenta and BCSGratefulDiver like this.
  8. nimoh

    nimoh Public Safety Diver

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Rochester, MN
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    I thought something similar. When I took PPB, I came away thinking that two dives was not enough...it should be a course on its own.
     
  9. iluvtheocean

    iluvtheocean Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 25 - 49
    Location: Hollywood, FL
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    i think myself that deep,nav, and ppb should be required but with ppb required 1st. it all depends on the instructor though how well each will be though....
    working on ppb on shallow water dives (10-15 feet?)
     
  10. BCSGratefulDiver

    BCSGratefulDiver Mental toss flycoon ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: On the Fun Side of Trump's Wall
    74,391
    59,607
    113
    It's a matter of approach. When I first started teaching AOW, I was going over the curriculum with one of my students when he asked me which dive was the one where we were going to work on buoyancy control ... I replied "all of them" ...

    ... Bob (Grateful Diver)
     
    nimoh, Jim Lapenta, eelnoraa and 2 others like this.

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