Advice for Training and Gear

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

After some research it seems like some version of the Stealth, Razor or Hollis may be the brands I'm looking at...

The first thing to understand is that sidemount rigs developed along two disparate routes of design.

Read: The Two Schools of Sidemount Diving Heritage

This allows you to identify the inherent features on a rig... and hence its design history. That, in turn, gives you direction on what sort of diving a given rig will be optimal for.

Divers have consistently struggled to modify and adapt rigs for the wrong 'type' of diving.

UK/Mexican cave rigs always proved ungainly and 'beach balled' when dealing with steel high capacity cylinders. The 'work around' was to use multiple lightweight stages, rather than fewer heavyweight cylinders.

USA/Florida rigs suffered equal problems when dealing with aluminium / warm water diving needs. They're overly heavy or bulky... awful for travel. The use of butt rails and certain bungee methods, such as ring bungees or heavyweight independent bungees, was an anathema to keeping aluminium cylinders properly trimmed.

Its only in the last couple of years that we see some manufacturers strart to crack these limitations.... and produce rigs that can handle the needs of either approach without the 'traditional' drawbacks.

The XDeep Stealth Tec is an example of a Mexican cave style rig that eliminates the 'beach ball' effect and can handle high capacity steel tanks without drawback.

From the opposite direction, the Hollis Katana stems from the US/Florida cave heritage, but introduces modularity and minimalism... and has options that actually make it effective for warm water and aluminium tank configuration.

I see The Stealth has a classic, 2.0 and a tec version I think. So an op/instructor that can objectively give me all the pros and cons and make suggestions based on the specific diving I'll be doing is what I'm looking for. Of course I want the best instruction possible so that I can adapt and trouble shoot any rig.

Firstly, you need to travel to WHERE they dive the approach you need. If you will dive AL80 cylinders, go to where those cylinders are the standard.

Secondly, you need to identify an instructor who had genuine expertise is both sidemount AND the rig/s you're interested in.

Some sidemount instructors really just have zero expertise... they only ever don sidemount on rare occasions... often only when teaching sidemount courses. Some are just making it up as they go along. Needless to say... avoid them like the plague.

Other sidemount instructors are specialists on a single rig. A good example of this is 'Official Razor' instructors. For sure they have significant expertise and experience... but they'll only teach in their given rig of preference. That's perfect if your rig of preference matches their rig of preference.

There's very few sidemount instructors that teach a wide variety of rigs. To gain expertise in a variety of rigs takes a lot of time.

I've been diving... and teaching.. solely on sidemount for over a decade. Thousands of dives as a full-time diver. In that time, I've only managed to gain significant experience on maybe a dozen rigs.

By 'significant', I mean with a high level of attention-to-detail; understanding the nuances and critical aspects of a rig and it's performance...

Of course, many rigs are loose clones of others... so the principles and expertise can transfer from one brand to another... if the rigs are largely similar.

The need for buoyancy redundancy is a serious question. For 'lite' technical sidemount you may not need it. Sidemount is particularly adaptive for a balanced rig approach.

That said, having 'solutions' like a balanced rig, ditching cylinders or using lift bags to ascend when otherwise negatively buoyant is NOT an equipment fix. It's a skills fix.

Only the individual diver can ascertain if they really have the skills and psychology to implement 'creative' and more complex solutions to a bladder failure under the worst case scenarios.

From my experience, many don't. Developing reliable capacity to do these solutions takes many hours of dedicated practice and hundreds of hours relevant experience.

In which case, opt for a dual bladder solution.

That could mean a dedicated dual-bladder BCD.... or adding a 2nd bladder to an existing rig. There's deft... and dumb... examples of both.

To be clear, my tech aspirations would be "light" tech. In other words, something like two bottom gas tanks and one deco tank, I don't see myself expanding beyond that.

So... that'd be anything up to ~45m/150' range, with moderate deco. Runtime s circa 60 minutes?

Obviously, it depends on your individual parameters (weighting, competency etc), but pretty much any rig will handle 2XAL80 with an AL40/60 deco. I've used a Dive Rite Trim Pillow (2L wing) for dives like this. I currently use a Deco Sidemount (10L wing) for dives up to 3x AL80.

That said, I know good divers who need more buoyancy... simply because they need more weight than me. So... something up to ~20L capacity.

Beyond that requirement... or for divers with less refined weighting or skills... I'd recommend a dedicated technical wing... buoyancy in the region of 30-40L. There's a vast range of decent rigs with those capabilities.

My personal preference is the XDeep Stealth Tec. The dual bladder version is released any day now... and that'll be about as complete and cutting edge as there is.

That's because I dive tropical waters in a 3 or 5mm wetsuit... and regularly do dives with 4+ cylinders (AL80s or AL100s).

After the XDeep, I think the Apeks WSX, Razor 2, Hollis Katana and UTD Z-Trim are all very good. Or you can go for a clone-type that basically copies these.... maybe save some money.

Pending finding your ideal instructor, do consider investing in Steve Martin's sidemount video series. It's expensive (on a par with the cost of an El Cheapo sidemount course), but it's hugely comprehensive and will definitely get you started with the foundations for configuring and using a UK/Mexican cave style rig. The videos themselves use XDeep and Apeks rigs as examples.
 
Last edited:
@CptTightPants21 the most popular doubles are probably PST LP104's, and most popular sidemount are LP85's, all cave filled to 3600 psi. Functionally they become 145's and 116's.

@Norwegian Cave Diver there are a few reasons for cave filling low pressure tanks. First and foremost, the practice started before HP tanks existed, so there was no choice. With 104's being the more common tanks, you could either cave fill them and carry ~300ft of gas, or you had to carry a stage to get to the same gas volume. Then you actually have to start carrying stages, and the fact that a cave fill saves you from carrying an extra stage becomes quite interesting.

My current cave diving tanks are LP85's and LP121's. They hold 116 and 165cf when cave filled. The reason I use these tanks instead of their high pressure siblings are twofold. First, the buoyancy characteristics and weight are more appealing for the low pressures *being much less negative*, and second the cost. HP tanks are $$$ and rather uncommon to find. We've been cave filling 3aa tanks for close to 50 years at this point with no reported failures in hydro or catastrophic failures reported. If I wanted to switch my 121's to 149's which are the largest HP tanks being made right now, I would get roughly the same capacity since they're both 19l tanks, but have a tank that's 2lbs heavier and 2lbs more negative in the water as well as costs roughly 2x as much. I purchased the 121's for $300, I have seen one pair of 149's for sale and they wanted $600. No way I'm paying that much especially with a downside in buoyancy characteristics. If I was diving in the ocean and needed tanks that big, I probably would since I would want the ballast, but not in a cave
 
When I do the math, it seems that the capacities you are reporting for LP tank overfills are based on ideal gas behavior. Doesn't compressibility at those higher pressures make a difference that is big enough that you'd really want to account for it in your gas planning? I.e. an LP104 actually holds less than 145 and an LP121 really holds less than 165? In both cases, is it not enough less that you'd want to plan your gas based on the "real" capacity instead of the ideal capacity?

I'm really wondering if an LP104 holds any more than an HP130 filled to normal, and if an LP121 really holds any more than an HP149.

Also, can you overfill an HP tank to 4000psi? It seems like I read that they have thicker walls than an LP tank, so it seems like you could at least fill them to 4000, like I read that some people do with LP tanks. If so, why not use an overfilled HP149, if you REALLY want max gas? Ideal gas means it's really no better than an LP121 filled to the same pressure? Or not enough better to justify the money?
 
My 3500psi PST HP 100s get filled to 4000+ with no issues.
 
Any idea how much gas they hold (actual, not "ideal") at that pressure? Not that any of my local shops will do fills over the rated pressure...
 
@stuartv yes the assumption there is based on linear compressibility which after 3300ish psi goes out the window, especially with trimix. That said, in cave diving our planning is based on consumption in, then consumption out. By having less gas than we think we do on the way in, i.e. 1200psi where we think is say 50cf, but is actually 45cf, is an extra safety factor because the linear behavior at the lower pressures means we still have 100cf in the 2400psi remaining at turn.

LP121's/125's have the same water capacity of 149's, but remember that capacities vary greatly with temperature and are only nominal ratings. The tanks above are 19l water capacity. Assuming linear behavior to 2640 psi they hold 122cf of gas. At 3442 they hold 159.2. Someone can go find the chart for compressibility factors, I don't have time tonight since I'm in the UK and have dinner meetings, but the tank ratings in the US are nominal and are highly variable with temperature, so you have to take that with a big grain of salt. The rest of the world uses their water capacities which are fixed and a much better indicator of tank volumes as it is a direct measurement as opposed to an indirect measurement
 
Stu, u need a new pumper. I'm skeered about over 4k in alum tho. Just prejudiced I guess. And if a tank actually holds 85cf @ 2440, why wouldn't it actually hold 122cf @ 3620?
 
Stu, u need a new pumper. I'm skeered about over 4k in alum tho.

I don't think anyone is talking about overfilling aluminum. I was just asking about overfilling HP steel 100s.

My usual local shop will fill mine to around 3800 or so, so they are still around 3500 when they totally cool down. But, they won't fill them to have a room temperature pressure (after cooling down) of 4000.
 
Stu, u need a new pumper. I'm skeered about over 4k in alum tho. Just prejudiced I guess. And if a tank actually holds 85cf @ 2440, why wouldn't it actually hold 122cf @ 3620?

compressibility factors. Gases don't behave linearly at any pressure actually, but with different temperatures it gets all sorts of sideways.
Compressibility factor - Wikipedia
probably more than you care to know, but that's the science behind it. Keep in mind that every mix behaves slightly differently, especially so when helium is put in
 
Any idea how much gas they hold (actual, not "ideal") at that pressure? Not that any of my local shops will do fills over the rated pressure...

Subsurface tells me 116cf at 4000psi.. Also when I am filling that way I am in cave country and I will fill them after diving in the evening and then "top" them back up to 4000+ in the morning before a dive.
 

Back
Top Bottom