After your ow course, were you able to dive without Dm/instr?

After your ow course, was you able to dive without Dm/instr?


  • Total voters
    227

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

This is a little veering off-of-topic, but...

I know after my OW certification I was NOT ready to dive without supervision. I was a menace, to myself, other divers, and the environment in which I was diving.

Now even with my AOW / Nitrox / PPB / etc. / and about 100 more dives, I still feel more comfortable with the knowledge there is a DM/instructor in the water with me. Or at the very least a more experienced diver, or a diver with better knowledge of the dive site. My recent Cayman Aggressor trip was the first time I did some diving without a DM or guide, and I realized that I was becoming a better diver than I gave myself credit for (neutral buoyancy was easy, I navigated solely on compass and nearly pounded the hull of the boat with my forehead on my return, and I still had 1200# in the tank after 65 minutes in the water).

Maybe it's a personal thing; I maintain that there is always going to be someone who is better at the [INSERT ACTIVITY HERE] than I am, and I feel it is important that I learn what I can (if I can) from that person. Yes, I'm diving in beautiful places to relax and enjoy the sport I love, but skill improvement is how I enjoy that sport more.

What drives me nuts is that my improvement over the past years have zero to do with PADI's system. Frankly, I think PADI was nuts for certifying me even for OW, and this feeling is only solidified every time I see a dive boat full of cruise ship divers, or one of the buses with hulls running out of Key Largo. Destroying the reefs, running into each other, and lacking any courtesy. I'd say more than half of the OW divers I encounter cannot dive safely (or well) and they have no desire to improve beyond that entry-level.

I only got better by taking it seriously, wanting to be better, and telling DM and guides that I wasn't just diving for fun. What can you teach me? What am I doing wrong? How do I do that thing you make look so easy? And when they gave me tips or instruction, I paid for that knowledge (however small) with a big tip / dinner / booze / whatever currency they operate in.

Maybe that's the disconnect: the people who vacation dive every 2 years or so, and the people who genuinely are nuts for diving and do it whenever they can. The latter are going to be better divers. My question, as a warm water diver (who lives on the frozen shores of NH), how do find those outfits and liveaboards who cater to those who want to continue to improve, and not to the kicking masses of OW divers?
 
DreadnaughtNH, Good post. I would tend to blame PADI (and other agencies) less and the workings of the scuba industry and dive shops more. The "quickie" weekend courses which are the norm now, have been said to be a result of people today wanting things easy and not very time consuming. I won't get into the monetary business aspect because I am no expert and that has been discussed often on SB. As I said previously, being fairly comfortable diving unsupervised right after these "short" OW courses has a lot to do with previous comfortability in water.
I believe a PADI standard is something like -- student must show mastery of the skills (maybe something in there about repeating them as well?). Mastery obviously is open to discussion. Could be anything from you do it right once and the instructor "ticks off the box" to you do it repeatedly several times with no flaws. Allowable pool time obviously means leaning toward the former. "Mastery" was discussed on a long thread also. I feel all the dozen or so instructors I assisted were very good, but I never saw a student clear a mask 5 times with maybe 7 students in the class. That would take quite a while on each skill.
 
From what I understood, she was not an arrogant person. She failed to understand that her weights compensated for her exposure suit. Being wrong is not a clear indication of arrogance.

OK, she may not have been, but insisting that one is right rather than find out why the locals are advising against it, is an arrogant act. When visiting other areas I make a point of finding a local to dive with, in order to avoid doing something stupid, which would be fine back in my waters.


Bob
 
but insisting that one is right rather than find out why the locals are advising against it, is an arrogant act.
I guess it would depend on how they couched it. I have people telling me how to dive, run ScubaBoard and generally live my life and largely they are wrong. It's hard to sift the wheat from the chaff at times.
 
any open water diver should be able to dive with a buddy in similar or better conditions than which they were certified. otherwise, they have not met the iso level 2 autonomous diver standard.

the fact this is a question is an indictment of the current state of scuba instruction by the major recreational agencies.
 
any open water diver should be able to dive with a buddy in similar or better conditions than which they were certified. otherwise, they have not met the iso level 2 autonomous diver standard.

the fact this is a question is an indictment of the current state of scuba instruction by the major recreational agencies.

I don't know about iso level 2, but WRSTC has no "in similar or better conditions than which they were certified" in their standards which PADI and a number of other agencies are members.


Bob
 
Unimportant question but, is it "the same or better" or "similar or better" conditions. Can't find it googling.
 
@Bob DBF

https://www.sis.se/api/document/preview/917215/

Competencies and qualifications - EUF Certification

EN 14153-2 / ISO 24801-2 - Level 2 "Autonomous Diver"
Competencies of a recreational scuba diver at level 2 "Autonomous Diver"

A scuba diver at level 2 "Autonomous Diver" shall be trained to have sufficient knowledge, skill and experience to dive with other scuba divers of at least the same level in open water without supervision of a scuba instructor.

Scuba divers at level 2 "Autonomous Diver" are qualified to dive within the following parameters unless they have additional training or are accompanied by a dive leader:

  • dive to a recommended maximum depth of 20 m with other scuba divers of the same level,
  • make dives, which do not require in-water decompression stops,
  • dive only when appropriate support is available at the surface,
  • dive under conditions that are equal or better than the conditions where they were trained.
If diving conditions are significantly different from those previously experienced, a scuba diver at level 2 "Autonomous Diver" requires an appropriate orientation from a dive leader.

If accompanied by a scuba instructor, a scuba diver at level 2 "Autonomous Diver" may gain progressive experience beyond these parameters and develop competency in managing more challenging diving conditions (e.g. increased depth and current, reduced visibility, extreme temperatures) designed to lead to higher qualifications.
 
PADI’s qualifications are ISO accredited
As PADI themselves point out on their website:

International Organization for Standardization (ISO) Standards Compliant – PADI courses are certified as compliant with ISO standards for Recreational Diving Services by an independent auditor, the European Underwater Federation and the Austrian Standards Institute. The ISO standards (see chart below) relate to five levels of diver, two levels of instructor and a service provider or dive center. Each of these standards equate to a PADI certification or member level, which means that, in effect, divers or members holding one of these qualifications can also be said to have met the requirements of the relevant ISO standard – as though they had gained two credentials at once.

upload_2019-2-12_11-25-23.png
Why PADI® | PADI

CMAS' standards and syllabi are available here (just note that the national Diving Associations are free to impose stricter regulations than CMAS International does, and CMAS' standards are to be considered the minimum), and a brief overview of which of CMAS' certs complies with which ISO standard is found here. Short summary:

ISO 24801-1 Supervised Diver: PADI Scuba Diver
ISO 24801-2 Autonomous Diver: PADI OWD, CMAS 1* Diver
ISO 24801-3 Dive Leader: PADI DM, CMAS 3* Diver
ISO 24802-1 Instructor Level 1: PADI Assistant Instructor. CMAS Assistant Instructor
ISO 24802-2 Instructor Level 2: PADI OWSI, CMAS 1* Instructor
ISO 11107 Training programmes on enriched air nitrox (EAN) diving: PADI Enriched Air Diver, CMAS Enriched Air Nitrox Diver

Perhaps @Edward3c can tell us which of BSAC's certs comply with which ISO standard?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

Back
Top Bottom