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Alec Pierce Scuba - Long Hose Good or Bad

Discussion in 'Advanced Scuba Discussions' started by loosenit2, Sep 19, 2019.

  1. MichaelMc

    MichaelMc Divemaster Candidate

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: Berkeley, CA
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    Actually, Alec makes the very strong statement that long hose is "contrary to good scuba practices", outside its original "very specific circumstances" of penetration wreck or cave. Though his criticisms in the video are mostly about primary donate, not about hose length, aside from the head loop claims.

    "Its application is quite limited. It was designed, developed, created, what ever you want to call it, for specific applications. Any other use of the long hose is contrary to good scuba practices. That's my point, that's my position. Now that being the case, unless a diver is being trained to dive in those very specific circumstances, he shouldn't use the long hose, well other than for training, or practice, thats fine." (2:40)

    He mentions those circumstances as penetration wreck or cave, (4:48). He goes on to talk about proper training and practice for that specific need. And the high cost of that training, practice, and equipment.

    At the end (15:00) he says "Not the best choice for recreational divers, certainly not when starting in diving." ... Get them safe and standard. If they express tech interest, get them trained. "For specific dives in that training the long hose may very well be the proper system for them to use."

    That seems rather unjustified.
     
    StefinSB, RayfromTX and PfcAJ like this.
  2. Mr. Sunday

    Mr. Sunday Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Seattle-WA-USA
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    ISE just released a video on the topic. Achim mentions it is a response to a recently posted Youtube video he has been getting emails about.


     
    Ayisha likes this.
  3. Graeme Fraser

    Graeme Fraser Tech Instructor

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Narnia
    508
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    Firstly, I really respect Achim and am an avid viewer of his YouTube channel. In no way am I presumptive enough to believe I can compete with his knowledge and experience. However....

    .... I think his video, and a number of the posts in this thread, are somewhat selective in their comparison of the two configurations.

    To draw an accurate comparison, surely the users ability should not be assumed. In both examples I detect a bias that the user of the standard AAS reg setup will be inexperienced and slapdash in their approach to skills, streamlining and kit maintenance (ie not bothering to maintain and function check AAS, not clipping SPG, etc). By contrast the long hose primary donate diver is portrayed as the opposite.

    Whether or not this is what people are more likely to see on the average holiday dive boat, does not, de facto, mean long hose primary donate is more suitable for recreational use.
     
  4. Must_dash

    Must_dash Angel Fish

    # of Dives: 50 - 99
    Location: Italy
    33
    13
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    Just watched Achim's video and he is very defensive about why his system is best and everything else is inferior. But as Alec said in his it's 'horses for courses'.
    What percentage of the dive population even consider tec diving. Most of the world's divers are holiday divers in the warm on a reef looking at pretty fish and probably wouldn't know what a long hose was for.
    Everything is personal preference. DIR (and hence GUE and ISE) do things for a reason. Back of a cave system and a major problem at 100m is a very different problem to 15m on a reef.
     
    pauldw, Neilwood and Diving Dubai like this.
  5. Divectionist

    Divectionist Solo Diver

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Gold Coast, Australia
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    The average and sub-average non-scubaboard-infected diver out there needs something brightly coloured to grab. They will barely listen to your octo procedure briefing and forget once their ears fill with water.

    I always feel like a tech setup, that will appear absolutely alien to 90% of rec divers, introduces some form of risk when in a group of divers who are simply not informed or interested.

    Long hose all dandy among those who know what to do with it. Until some stranger rips at your necklace while trying to find something yellow in the 'triangle', because it is the nearest thing.

    I dive my solo setup when buddy diving, black primary on short hose and yellow secondary on yellow hose stowed on my slung pony. It's pretty visible from most angles even when in horizontal trim. Yellow is easy to remember, and I tell all new buddies.

    Meanwhile, anyone suggesting long hoses are a choke hazards can go play with the bp/w face plants you in the water crowd.
     
    pauldw and Graeme Fraser like this.
  6. Neilwood

    Neilwood Loggerhead Turtle

    # of Dives: 50 - 99
    Location: Scotland
    2,435
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    I think one of the issues is that the user group here is skewed towards very experienced recreational divers and tech divers. It is not representative of "real world" diving where people want something simple and easy.

    Some comments regarding the various systems (from the viewpoint of a recreational diver):
    "Standard reg set":
    Hoses dragging on the bottom - that is a problem of lack of attention and suggests the diver shouldn't really be in the water.
    Octopus reg full of gravel/not safe for use - lack of attention to gear which again suggests the diver might not be safe to be in the water. For the sake of a 5 sec check of the gear pre dive it should not happen
    Breathing the wrong gas - not an issue for RECREATIONAL divers (emphasis is mine) as they should only ever be on one gas.
    Shorter hose for passing in an OOA situation - means that you will be in close contact with the OOA diver and can hopefully help them to manage any stress/panic.
    Grabbing your primary second stage in OOA - issue with lack of training and practise.

    Long hose:
    Assumes a level of skill and attention that a lot of recreational divers do not have (whether they should or not is a different discussion) - long hose use comes with a set of procedures that an occasional recreational diver is just aas likely to forget to do than their "BWRAF" check or whatever they SHOULD do.
    Breathing the right gas - of course they are because they are RECREATIONAL divers who only breathe one gas
    Breathing a reg that you know works - if you have done a PROPER gear check with either system you know the reg works. I check both regs before I splash and expect my buddy to do likewise - if they dont I WILL ask.
    Long hose makes for better stand off distance - really only becomes an issue if you have an overhead issue to affect you.
    Long hose makes for easier donation - if you think the same poorly skilled diver that has their octo dragging in the silt can pass a long hose easier than a shorter "octo" then I think you are deluded.
    Long hose adds a number of steps to the overall process (s drills etc) that will still get skipped by the same poorly skilled diver.

    There are arguments for both systems and there is no 100% right and wrong answer for recreational divers. I can understand the theory of long hose and see where it would be an advantage just as well as I can see the reason for the trad set up.

    To me long hose makes sense for someone that is progressing towards or through technical diving both in approach and training. They are the diver that is willing to put in the time and effort to learn and practise their skills. It does not make a huge amount of sense for the poorly skilled diver that can barely assemble their rig, skips pre dive checks and cant be bothered to stop their reg/spg dragging in the sand. - that diver should probably not be in the water anyway.
     
  7. RayfromTX

    RayfromTX Student Of Gas Mixology Staff Member ScubaBoard Sponsor

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: Hill Country of Central TX
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    Scubaboard is a very valuable tool for discovering what works and what doesn't. The most heavily trafficked forum is the A&I forum. The near misses forum is also very popular. There is almost 20 years of historical data on what causes problems. DAN is another useful database for what causes life threatening issues for divers. I have done some searches but I have yet to find an incident where the long hose caused confusion and led to an incident. Can we base our opinions on these issues on actual experiences? It seems that this is a case of "it probably would or could" rather than it has.

    The standard setup works but has issues in the water. The primary donate with a long hose and a bungeed necklace works and has issues on the boat.

    Training is the answer to any issues related to either method and with the number of air2/airsource inflator/secondary regulator setups in use in the recreational market, it would seem negligent to not teach primary donate to every single OW student.
     
  8. Manatee Diver

    Manatee Diver Manta Ray

    # of Dives: None - Not Certified
    Location: Tampa Bay, FL
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    That is why the purge cover on my primary is now yellow. And when my long hose needs replacing I will be replacing it with an orange hose.

    I do the same, when I can, but my pony has the regulator off, so it would be a rush to turn it on never they breath down the hose (which is likely a breath or two with a hose that short).
     
    pauldw likes this.
  9. Brian G

    Brian G Nassau Grouper

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: Pittsburgh
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    It is impossible for the optimal length of hose for air sharing to be the same number for all types of diving. I think we can agree that 10" is shorter than optimal, and 20 feet is longer than optimal. In fact, a 7 foot hose is shorter than optimal for an actual air share through a tight restriction. A 7 foot hose is long enough to make the air share reasonable without needing a more elaborate method of stowing. A diver who does not have to go through tight restrictions to get to safety does not need a buddy with a 7 foot hose. For me, 40" to 60" encompasses the range of desirable hose lengths for air sharing in open water.
     
  10. MaxBottomtime

    MaxBottomtime Divemaster

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Torrance, CA
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    The long hose allows both divers to swim side by side comfortably or single file. It is really much nicer than having a buddy in your face for the ascent. It is not just for overhead. To share airr with a long hose, you bow your head for a second while you or your buddy takes your second stage. While your head is bowed, you can put your backup reg in your mouth. It does not require a lot of practice. You can do it once and it will be like riding a bike.
     
    Ayisha, RayfromTX, shoredivr and 2 others like this.

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