An Attempt at Understanding DIR

[Sloth]

Hey Trace, condolences on your Father. I hope his was a gentle passing with a fulfilled life.

Let me start by thanking you for your on going patience with me. You are humoring my arguments and taking them as an equal even though you rightfully don't have to.

One of the issues with this DIR forum is the DIR instructors that use to frequent these boards have all for the most part been run off by the trolls and the "Internet DIR" experts. Additionally the more advanced Tech 2, Cave 2 divers tend to stay away particularly from threads like this. Lamont and Lynne have done an admirable job of carrying the torch while remaining cordial but they aren't GUE instructors so they don't have the same level of authority that an instructor would.

This has caused a bit of a vacuum that is being filled by instructors such as yourself and Thal. You guys see the merits of a "DIR" approach and in your case you have also directly experienced it. You guys can provide wonderful information as can anyone with decades of dive experience but I think you do a bit of a disservice by continually reminding those interested in learning about GUE/UTD training in the DIR forum that there are other options out there. While this forum is filled with trolls, DIR haters, and self stamped DIR experts there are a few people that are genuinely interested in learning more about GUE/UTD training. They aren't necessarily looking for information on PDIC or Thal's advance training program. If they weren't interested in learning about GUE/UTD exclusively they would probably be in the general Tech diving forum. The whole reason this sub-forum was formed was because every time someone would ask about DIR the conversation would inevitably be railroaded into how DIR isnt the only program out there or worse. That is exactly what has happened in this thread and pretty much every other thread when someone starts asking for more input into GUE/UTD training.

I will be moving to Ohio next week and maybe after I get use to cold water diving again I could track you down for a dive or two. I would love to dive with you and maybe drink some PDIC kool-aid

Mark

 

[coldsmoke]

I don't post here in DIR land except on very specifc points, but this is one of them. The "team" discribed is hard to put together, and very hard to keep together over the long term.

Unless diving is your main job, time, family, work, lifestyles will pull most every team apart after 2 years or less, so if the "Team" is not constantly bringing in new bodies, it will fail over time.....

Which probably illustrates the benefit of DIR/UTD as good or better than any other post in this thread.

There is a very high likelyhood that anyone trained by GUE or UTD will be able to jump right into a pretty seamless team. Kinda smart having so much standardization huh.

Hunter

 

[Jasonmh]

...
One of the issues with this DIR forum is the DIR instructors that use to frequent these boards have all for the most part been run off by the trolls and the "Internet DIR" experts. Additionally the more advanced Tech 2, Cave 2 divers tend to stay away particularly from threads like this. Lamont and Lynne have done an admirable job of carrying the torch while remaining cordial but they aren't GUE instructors so they don't have the same level of authority that an instructor would.

Yes, and that is a real shame. I know that a atleast a few would be much more likely to participate if it wasn't for the extra "noise" in this forum. It just isn't worth the time to put up with the rediculousness that goes on here most of the time. Maybe we would be able to get some involved in the DIR Practicioners forum?

We get everything in here from "DIR divers are egomanical know-it-alls" to once you "become" DIR you "are "DIR", so you can pretty much do whatever you want call it that, any everything in between. I check here reguarly, hoping to glean some more info from the senior members that post. I appreciate the mods and members who try to impart useful information here. I can't help but think that there are divers who come here maybe looking for some info on DIR, and have a hard time wading through all the crap, and leave without really getting a sense of anything other than we like to argue. With how things are, I can't see how that wouldn't happen.

 

[Slonda828]

I can't help but think that there are divers who come here maybe looking for some info on DIR, and have a hard time wading through all the crap, and leave without really getting a sense of anything other than we like to argue. With how things are, I can't see how that wouldn't happen.

I've been thinking about taking GUE training for like a year now. I even talked to a guy in Florida at Extreme Exposure (forgive me, I forget his name but he was super nice) about taking some. There's just so much crap associated with it that even though I know it would be great training, I have never pulled the trigger on it. I also don't know any other GUE divers, so even if I took the training it's not like I would have anyone around here with whom to dive. I still read the posts though, when they are not just people arguing with one another about what IS or IS NOT "DIR". I have not noticed anything that is "just because" that is actual GUE recommended and not just some random SB'er talking.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I've been thinking about taking GUE training for like a year now. I even talked to a guy in Florida at Extreme Exposure (forgive me, I forget his name but he was super nice) about taking some. There's just so much crap associated with it that even though I know it would be great training, I have never pulled the trigger on it. I also don't know any other GUE divers, so even if I took the training it's not like I would have anyone around here with whom to dive. I still read the posts though, when they are not just people arguing with one another about what IS or IS NOT "DIR". I have not noticed anything that is "just because" that is actual GUE recommended and not just some random SB'er talking.

So take the training, use what you can get out of it, and dive with your regular buddies. Who knows ... your new-found skills might just make them decide they want some of that.

FWIW - I do the majority of my recreational diving with people who are not even close to DIR trained. Most of them, in fact, are former students of mine. But they still have good buddy skills, buoyancy control, and know how to plan and manage a dive in a way that's relaxing and fun ... even fairly aggressive dives.

Don't get all wrapped up in "being DIR" ... lots of folks take a Fundies class more to improve their basic skills than because they want to get into endless Internet arguments over the proper use of bent vs unbent D-rings ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Gilldiver]

Which probably illustrates the benefit of DIR/UTD as good or better than any other post in this thread.

There is a very high likelyhood that anyone trained by GUE or UTD will be able to jump right into a pretty seamless team. Kinda smart having so much standardization huh.

Hunter

If what you said is true, then any diver with an advanced GUE card could jump into any WKPP project. Understand the limits and advantages of the training first. Then form up your teams for what the team wants to do.

For a "Big" dive (insert your definition of a big dive here) basic training alone never equals Plug and Play, it only gives you the base to build on. I have always thought of full DIR/GUE as being very militaristic in that the standardization of training and equipment allow for teams to be formed and then trained for a particular mission. The Military never just picks people with paper qualification and a base of training for a special mission, they pick the best they have and then have those people train for a mission/project.

Again, a real team is the hardest thing to form and keep together.

As for the Internet DIR discussions etc. the best I have come up with is that it is like 1600's religious reformation warfare. You have a small group that leads and understands, a much, much larger group that think they understand it all and argue over how many angles can dance on a pin head, a group of new/semi-knowledgeable who have been lead to believe that DIR already has all the answers and it is written, and an outside group of arch conservatives (pure anti DIR - the Farm Animal Stupid or unwashed pizza stained T-shirt crowd) and followers of Luther who will snipe at any and all things.

 

[Sloth]

If what you said is true, then any diver with an advanced GUE card could jump into any WKPP project. Understand the limits and advantages of the training first. Then form up your teams for what the team wants to do.

For a "Big" dive (insert your definition of a big dive here) basic training alone never equals Plug and Play, it only gives you the base to build on. I have always thought of full DIR/GUE as being very militaristic in that the standardization of training and equipment allow for teams to be formed and then trained for a particular mission. The Military never just picks people with paper qualification and a base of training for a special mission, they pick the best they have and then have those people train for a mission/project.

Again, a real team is the hardest thing to form and keep together.

As for the Internet DIR discussions etc. the best I have come up with is that it is like 1600's religious reformation warfare. You have a small group that leads and understands, a much, much larger group that think they understand it all and argue over how many angles can dance on a pin head, a group of new/semi-knowledgeable who have been lead to believe that DIR already has all the answers and it is written, and an outside group of arch conservatives (pure anti DIR - the Farm Animal Stupid or unwashed pizza stained T-shirt crowd) and followers of Luther who will snipe at any and all things.

As a Tech 1 diver I know that I can hook up with other Tech 1 trained divers from anywhere in the world and after a good surface discussion jump right into a deco dive within Tech 1 limits. I don't have this luxury with divers trained through other agencies. For that I have to do a shallow water dive with them so we can asses each others skills and then have long discussions about what sort of diving we do, how we approach deco, failures, gas management, so on and so on. Frankly I'll take a little kool-aid and lock myself into this supposed ridge box with no flexibility called unified diving if it means I can do a deco dive with a complete stranger from anywhere in the world in a safe manner.

By the way your military analogy is pure garbage. If I get my jump wings and transfer from one airborne unit to the next my new unit will not make me learn their way of doing airborne operations as there is only one approach to conventional airborne operations. Standard equipment, protocols and procedures for conventional airborne operations for all units and divisions across the Army. Kind of like GUE training for scuba.

 

[Slonda828]

So take the training, use what you can get out of it, and dive with your regular buddies. Who knows ... your new-found skills might just make them decide they want some of that.

FWIW - I do the majority of my recreational diving with people who are not even close to DIR trained. Most of them, in fact, are former students of mine. But they still have good buddy skills, buoyancy control, and know how to plan and manage a dive in a way that's relaxing and fun ... even fairly aggressive dives.

Don't get all wrapped up in "being DIR" ... lots of folks take a Fundies class more to improve their basic skills than because they want to get into endless Internet arguments over the proper use of bent vs unbent D-rings ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Do you have to take GUEF in order to take other GUE training? I've already taken a NAUI intro to technical diving course.

 

[coldsmoke]

If what you said is true, then any diver with an advanced GUE card could jump into any WKPP project. Understand the limits and advantages of the training first. Then form up your teams for what the team wants to do.

[SNIP]

Our exploration teams (Tech 3/Cave 3) going deeper than 300 feet can be supported by our deep support teams (Tech 2/Cave 2), who, in turn, can be supported by our intermediate teams (Tech 1/Cave 2) who are supported by our shallow teams (Fundies/Tech 1/Cave 1) who are supported by our surface teams (a mixture of exploration divers, tech, cave, fundies, and students doing everything from charging scooter batteries, to tying bolt snaps on lights, to preparing food, to filling bottles to passing stage bottles to support divers and everyone in the water relies on those behind them, so the newest student doing some seemingly mundane task is vital to the project we are doing. Everytone is on the same page and people are working together like a well-oiled machine. [SNIP]

Full post here.

Hunter

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Do you have to take GUEF in order to take other GUE training? I've already taken a NAUI intro to technical diving course.

Yes ... GUE-F is a prerequisite to higher-level GUE classes.

FWIW - I went the other way around. I took DIR-F (back before they changed the name) ... then switched to NAUI for my other tech classes (AN/Deco, Trimix 1 and 2, Wreck Penetration, etc). My NAUI instructor also has GUE training, and was able to describe the differences between NAUI and GUE at those levels. So at this point I'm comfortable diving with people who were trained by either agency. And, in fact, our regular diving team comprises people who were trained by both agencies.

Those who say it can't be done, haven't tried it ... we do it regularly.

No ... we're not WKPP ... but most people in the military aren't Special Forces either, so let's compare apples to apples ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)