Are BOW and AOW classes really changing that much

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An interesting read, to be sure. A couple of things...

The instructor makes far more difference than the agency does. Always has. Always will.

Instruction has changed a lot, and a lot for the better at that. I bristle when I read "dummed" down because they are confusing efficiency with dumb. I remember the old classes and watching them do push ups in the August Florida sun in full gear: wetsuit, weights, scuba unit, fins and mask. It was brutal and I was happy it wasn't me. That kept me from getting certified for decades: who needs that crap to dive? I was already diving and it just wasn't that hard.

When I finally decided to get certified due to @Moose's insistence, I was amazed at all the new stuff I learned. The BCD is a really cool invention and we were now diving with SPGs instead of j-valves and depth gauges instead of a red ribbon. Boy, that made diving even easier and fun, fun, fun. This was around the first of the Century (I've been diving since 1969) and unfortunately my instructor was a real dufus. But, just reading the book was amazing and I still learned a lot. Tables were simple enough, but I bought a PDC right off the bat. I've made a couple of deco dives on tables, but I don't trust me to dive on a tight schedule. Nope, I would rather trust my PDC to remember how deep I've been for how long. PDCs don't ever get narced and they don't forget. Humans always do, whether they admit it or not. For most rec planning, I use the rule of 120/140.

However now, more than ever, neutral buoyancy has taken center stage as a primary dive skill. There are a lot of old divers who want to re-invent history, but I remember the 70s and diving. We did use less weight on our belt as most of us didn't have a BC/horse collar but the bottom was always in peril. In fact, the big selling point for my first pair of Jets was that I would be able to kick the crap out of the reef and not hurt the fin. Yah, rly. No one cared about the environment except that it might hurt YOU. Diving in the Keys was perilous because of all the spiny urchins. Lots of people hurt hitting the bottom back then... including me.

You can be sure that every class back then was taught on their knees and they have been until this century. Peak Performance Buoyancy, was a good albeit inadequate start to get us neutral, but the entire industry has taken a far, far closer look at the need to be neutral only recently. PADI has changed their standards to reflect this, and when NASE relaunched, they set the bar even more neutral by requiring students to stay neutral during the entirety of their OW dives and not just for a minute or two. I understand that RAID has done pretty much the same thing as NASE in that regard. Good for them.

Sure, there are a number of skills gone from the old class. No more buddy breathing and while it's still allowed as a learning tool, we're not allowed to change depth. NASE won't let me do a CESA in open water: YAY! In my opinion, that's even more important than requiring neutral buoyancy all the time. No, there's no more jumping in with gear in hand/air off in order to get dressed on the bottom of the pool but when was that ever really needed??? Most of skills that have been eliminated were mostly parlor tricks and not needed during the dive. The only thing I really miss is the final pool "hell dive", where I get to pull out regs, steal fins and so forth. Those were truly fun, but a few idiots spoiled all that for us. :(

Finally (yeah, this is a long assed post), not everyone feels that it's best trying to cram in all the skills into OW, or even AOW. NAUI has taught panicked diver on the surface and retrieving a dead body from the bottom for decades. I think it confuses the student, but it does train their instructors as they do this skill over and over and over and over. If I have be rescued, I hope that there's a NAUI instructor close by but not one of their DMs or OW students. :D They have those skills DOWN cold. Oh yeah! However, other than that unintentional side effect, training should take time and segmenting it is the best method out there. I like the compartmentalized approach. I would rather a student learn a few skills incredibly well than to check off dozens upon dozens of skills with no dive time in between to develop your skills.

FWIW, I believe that all skills should be able to be executed mid water... yeah, even Scuba unit doff and don. I also believe that students should be able to breathe themselves neutral when given weight at depth (4# for women and 6# for men), frog kick and inflate a sausage on the surface. AOW, should also be able to shoot a sausage from depth and be able to swim/hover 6-12 inches above the bottom for an entire dive without stirring it up.
 
and when NASE relaunched, they set the bar even more neutral by requiring students to stay neutral during the entirety of their OW dives and not just for a minute or two. I understand that RAID has done pretty much the same thing as NASE in that regard.

Love, love, LOVE THIS! I hope PADI follows.

Question, why not during most of the confined water dives? I say most as I can understand that it is a bit difficult to get neutrally buoyant right off the start, though I do give it a shot in the classes I teach.
 
Question, why not during most of the confined water dives?

NASE standards dictate that they must accomplish this before they leave the pool. My students never get to kneel, lie, stand or even fin pivot on the bottom of the pool. There was a time when I was accused of lying about this, even by someone in this thread. :D I don't teach big classes, so I don't know how it would work with them. I think I could pull it off.

I actually start them off with trim and buoyancy before they get to do any other skill. Only when they get comfortable do we continue with additional skills. Each skill is demonstrated, practiced and mastered mid water. Sometime it takes only seconds for a skill while others take a bit more. Some skills, like doff and donning a BC mid water will take a bit longer. My students will also do buddy breathing, underwater jenga, descend and ascend using only their breathing in addition to the required NASE skills. It's a good amount of work that's a hundred percent fun.
 
I actually start them off with trim and buoyancy before they get to do any other skill. Only when they get comfortable do we continue with additional skills. Each skill is demonstrated, practiced and mastered mid water. Sometime it takes only seconds for a skill while others take a bit more. Some skills, like doff and donning a BC mid water will take a bit longer. My students will also do buddy breathing, underwater jenga, descend and ascend using only their breathing in addition to the required NASE skills. It's a good amount of work that's a hundred percent fun.

I start out with first doing some snorkel exercises that PeterGuy graciously shared with me. Then I move onto weighting and trim and continue the class as neutrally buoyant. it is working and I'm getting better at it. It makes a huge difference in preventing students from corking in the open water.
 
It makes a huge difference in preventing students from corking in the open water.
You're so right! Kneeling is presented as a way to 'control' students. I would rather put them in control of themselves from the start. Once they are comfortable and not feeling like they are about to fall over, true learning can take place. No white knuckles. No fear. Just fun, fun diving.

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Any monkey can read a table. But even then, if you don't know how to, I'm not sure what's the big deal? You're not gonna be underwater when you read them (or you'd have missed the past 20 years or so of diving evolution), so just grab someone that'll explain it rapidly and be done with it.

Typical scenario would be:
- do dive 1 on computer
- plan dive 2 with computer (tables? You're not gonna have the proper group anyway)
- computer dies during dive 2
- ascend immediately with your buddy which will give a reference of speed.
- start digging out tables for dive 3
- realize you have no idea of your current saturation state, so tables are pointless. (You can guesstimate them, sure. I would, but I don't think I'm allowed to recommend that practice)
- wait out 24h
- grab a rental computer or borrow one
- go diving again

Can't see the big deal, miss a dive or two if you really are unable to figure out how to use them, but except that? The ocean's not going away, nor are (most of) the wrecks.
It was the way my instructor taught me. He preached knowing the tables and how to use them. I guess to each his own.
 
I'm not necessarily against them, they're just never used in practice, and I don't know anyone that didn't make the claim "muh courses dumbed down nowadays" that does not point out to the fact "they don't need to learn tables anymore!!!".

Fun fact: In France, a dive op must have a set of tables on the boat, it is mandatory safety equipment. Go figure :coffee:
At FFESSM, you'll have exercises like this (I'm actually translating from one I looked up just now), for a level basically equivalent to extended range (in terms of depth).
translated:
- You dive at 11h06 on the "Junkers 88". The plane lies in 53m and you stay there 5 minutes. You start ascending and at 11h16 you are at 33m on a reef, where you stay 6 minutes looking at fauna/flora before ascending.
Make a drawing of the profile, give the ascent plan, give surface pressure group and time at which you get out of the water.
- At 15h50, you dive again on another spot at 21m, you stay there 37 minutes before ascending. After 10 minutes of deco, your buddy loses his weight belt and you end up on the surface. We hand him another belt, and after 3 minutes you are back in the water.
Complete the drawing of the profile, give the ascent plan, give the majoration, give the total time of ascent, give the time of exit.
And I **** you not, quite some of these guys are then gonna say that I'm a dangerous diver because I don't know tables.
 
Love, love, LOVE THIS! I hope PADI follows.

Question, why not during most of the confined water dives? I say most as I can understand that it is a bit difficult to get neutrally buoyant right off the start, though I do give it a shot in the classes I teach.
PADI advocates (but sadly does not require) horizontal, neutral buoyancy instruction from the very beginning of the confined water dives. They still allow insturction on the knees, and that means that long time instructors, feel no need even to try to do it differently.

Many PADI instructors, including me, have been teaching students while neutrally buoyant for many years, and that includes, as Pete mentioned, doing skills like scuba unit replacement and weight belt replacement in mid water.
 
PADI advocates (but sadly does not require) horizontal, neutral buoyancy instruction from the very beginning of the confined water dives. They still allow insturction on the knees, and that means that long time instructors, feel no need even to try to do it differently.

Many PADI instructors, including me, have been teaching students while neutrally buoyant for many years, and that includes, as Pete mentioned, doing skills like scuba unit replacement and weight belt replacement in mid water.
John,

I know that PADI allows for this, but does not require it. My IE was performed on the knees after all. I think they need to start there.
 
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