Are Suunto Zoops super conservative?

[scubadada]

Faulty generalization:

Conceptual/Evidential Fallacy

Definition:
When a conclusion based on induction is unwarranted by the degree of relevant evidence or ignores information that warrants an exception. He and his 4 brothers are bald, so his sister must also be bald.

Notes:
This fallacy is common where there is a phase transition or physical threshold, or where there is something other than a linear relationship between elements.

HTH, HAND

Not applicable here, hope your day is a good one too

 

[Umuntu]

Yes, SUUNTO algorithms are generally more conservative. Many divers, including myself, prefer that. And when I introduced my children to diving as young teenagers, I also put SUUNTO computers on their wrists … because they are generally more conservative.

I don't want to offend anyone, but the science behind [de]compression and its effects on our bodies is speculative and is based on fancy theories which the algorithms then try to model. None of it is really "true" in a scientific sense. These are just [speculative?] models trying to understand the processes going on in our bodies. The algorithms are designed to try to keep us safe whilst diving.

Personally, I would much rather that myself, and my family, all live to dive another day.

As a comparison, here's a graph I saved a while ago from Oceanic's website. I though it informative, and saved it on my iPad for those moments after a dive when KIA divers like to share strong opinions on how much better their computer is because it allows them to stay down longer !

Source: Dual Algorithm - Oceanic UK

 

[rek_diver]

Call me dense. What does the graph prove that isn't already common knowledge?

Oceanic and similar computers give longer dive times than the Suunto and comparitive computers that are more conservative.

I'll take the longer dive times and the slightly increased risk. I can always cut my dive time short if I decide to be more conservative, but I don't like an arbitrary restrictive computer telling me that the party's over, for no good reason other than "the manufacturer decided to choose a more limiting algorithm".

Show me all the graphs you want, I maintain my Oceanic is better because it provides more flexibility.

 

[Umuntu]

Show me all the graphs you want, I maintain my Oceanic is better because it provides more flexibility.

Different yes ! Better ? Who knows ? But I like conservative …

Many, if not most, instances of decompression sickness do not occur because the affected diver has exceeded the NDLs on their computer. That tells me something …

A skin bend cuts a diving holiday short - Case Summaries - DAN World

Quote:
While many divers trust their dive computers completely, the fact is that no dive computer knows who is wearing it, they all simply estimate no-stop limits based on a theory, and that theory may have been tested on people who were physically different to the diver wearing the computer today. Although probably none of us like to admit it, the average diver is not as young as we all once were and this diver's plan to dive more conservatively sounds like a prudent approach for avoiding another uncomfortable and inconvenient skin bend.
~ Peter Buzzacott, MPH, PhD

 

[ajduplessis]

Hi,

Just recently did a reasonably deep 2 tank dive. Kept a virtually identical dive profile as the others I was diving with - neither of them went into deco but somehow my Zoop put me into around 25 mins of deco. I decided to ignore it as my profile was identical to my buddies, and to go by their watch.

I have since set my zoop to 32% O2 - is there any other way to make it less conservative? Seems a bit ridiculous that it puts me into deco when others have around 15+ mins of deco time left.

Apologies if this is wrong place to post.

Thanks

You have more than 500 dives if things are to be believed and you post this? Based on your thought processes described above I would not bother with a dive computer, just follow your buddies! All computers are conservative......

 

[DevonDiver]

... my Zoop put me into around 25 mins of deco. I decided to ignore it... I have since set my zoop to 32% O2...

The "solutions" enacted by the OP do not represent agency-advocated safe diving practices, nor reflect anything he was ever taught in regards to computer use or diving behaviour.

What I'd suggest is that a high degree of complacency and "Normalisation of Deviance" has led to these decisions being made.

Complacency Article 1- The Experience Paradox

Complacency Article 2 - The Biggest Risk in Diving (and how to avoid it).

For novice divers reading this thread... that complacency issue is a far more necessary learning point than anything about computer model conservatism..

 

[Lorenzoid]

Different yes ! Better ? Who knows ? But I like conservative …

I think what he means by "more flexibility" is that a diver can exercise his own free will to ascend BEFORE the computer tells the diver the no-deco time is running out. You don't have to wait until a computer with a liberal algorithm counts down to zero no-deco time; you can leave yourself whatever buffer you want. You're not a slave to the computer. You the diver can choose to dive conservatively, despite using a computer with a liberal algorithm.

 

[rek_diver]

You have more than 500 dives if things are to be believed and you post this? Based on your thought processes described above I would not bother with a dive computer, just follow your buddies! All computers are conservative......

I dunno, I get the guys logic. The post you were referring to was a few months ago but when I went back and looked at it I sort of nodded my head. If the guy is diving a Zoop which is known to be very conservative and he's constantly getting "penalized" by 10-15 minutes of dive time, I can see why he'd get the idea to set the computer for a few percentage points higher of N02 to "fool" the computer into providing more non-deco time without locking him out or giving deco stop information.

The whole conservative vs aggressive algorithm thing between various computer manufacturers means only one thing to me. It's an "educated guess" with a lot of grey in the middle, and if the diver wants to say it's 32% instead of 30% when he's diving a conservative computer, it's not a completely unreasonable idea and it doesn't mean he's going to get bent.

 

[scubadada]

I dunno, I get the guys logic. The post you were referring to was a few months ago but when I went back and looked at it I sort of nodded my head. If the guy is diving a Zoop which is known to be very conservative and he's constantly getting "penalized" by 10-15 minutes of dive time, I can see why he'd get the idea to set the computer for a few percentage points higher of N02 to "fool" the computer into providing more non-deco time without locking him out or giving deco stop information.

The whole conservative vs aggressive algorithm thing between various computer manufacturers means only one thing to me. It's an "educated guess" with a lot of grey in the middle, and if the diver wants to say it's 32% instead of 30% when he's diving a conservative computer, it's not a completely unreasonable idea and it doesn't mean he's going to get bent.

"Fooling" your computer by setting the setting the FO2 at a higher number is not a good idea and should not be encouraged. All of your nitrogen exposure, in and out, will be miscalculated as long as the computer is set this way. If you don't like the NDLs your computer is giving you, think about getting a new computer, running a different decompression algorithm.

 

[rek_diver]

"Fooling" your computer by setting the setting the FO2 at a higher number is not a good idea and should not be encouraged. All of your nitrogen exposure, in and out, will be miscalculated as long as the computer is set this way. If you don't like the NDLs your computer is giving you, think about getting a new computer, running a different decompression algorithm.

I get that purchasing a less conservative computer is the best course of action. I'm not "encouraging" a diver to fool the computer, I'm just saying I can understand why he'd might want to do that and I can't say that if I was in a similar situation I wouldn't do the same. Just not seeing it as a crazy risk- yes your computer will underestimate all your NDLs but that's the whole point- it's too conservative so the diver is making it less conservative by altering the data it uses to make it's conservative calculations.