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ARGONAUT DSV mouthpiece design information.

Discussion in 'Vintage Double Hose' started by Luis H, May 29, 2017.

  1. Luis H

    Luis H Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Maine
    2,962
    1,220
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    Note: In this thread I am trying to collect all the technical information on the DSV that I have posted in different places and locate them in one place.


    DSV (Dive Surface Valve) style of mouthpiece

    Features:

    1) Simple design with minimal number of parts to increase reliability and keep production cost down.
    2) Closing feature is accomplish by rotating hose / hose clamp assembly. No lever sticking out of the front of the assembly.
    3) There is a removable mechanical stop that limits the rotation and gives positive feedback that the DSV is open or closed. The stop also keeps the two cylinder in alignment. The stop is removed in order to disassemble the DSV.
    4) Water in the mouthpiece byte tube can be purged before opening mouthpiece. This keeps the loop completely dry.
    5) There are traditional check valves (inlet and outlet) on both sides of the mouthpiece, but if the diver purges the little water inside the byte tube, there will never be any water entering either hose that will need purging. Purging by just blowing (or raising the MP above the can) is always possible as with a traditional MP.
    6) Mouthpiece was tested as completely water tight. Test showed that after 25 consecutive dives, regulator and inlet air hose were totally dry.
    7) There is no special maintenance required for the mouthpiece and since the regulator will be kept dryer, the maintenance on it will be reduced.
    8 ) The mouthpiece has five O-rings:
    a) The two on the wagon wheel valves are static O-ring and will probably outlast the silicone mushroom valve.
    b) There are two radial O-ring that provide a controlled amount of friction to the DSV rotation (They are not sealing O-rings).
    c) There is one O-ring that seals on the mouthpiece opening (or in the closed position). This O-ring can be easily inspected while rotating the DSV and it is easily replaced. The O-ring is captured, it only sees about 10% to 15% compression during operation, and has smooth surface to slide into with a nice rounded edge.
    9) Air passage in mouthpiece is very large and optimized to minimize flow resistance.
    10) Flow diverter provides smooth flow transition into and out of divers mouth.
    The inlet and outlet flow diverter ramp angle are different. They are designed for the difference in the flow velocity (inlet flow with venturi assist versus the slower outlet flow).
    11) Flow diverter is optimized to take full advantage of Argonaut Kraken maximum possible venturi flow. See note.
    12) Several flow diverter were designed and tested. The attached sketch shows three of the flow diverters tested. They have different height and flow angle. The 2 dimensional drawing is a bit misleading about the true flow path areas, but it should give an idea of the design.


    Note: The Argonaut Kraken was specifically design to have a very adjustable cracking effort and venturi flow.

    The lowest reasonable cracking effort is limited by the radius of the exhaust valve (about 1/2”). If the cracking effort is adjusted lower than 1/2 inWC, the regulator will tend to have a light free flow when the top edge of the exhaust is higher than the center of the diaphragm.

    Without the DSV flow diverter, the amount of venturi flow adjustment in the Argonaut Kraken had to be limited to avoid the excessive flow from blowing past the mouthpiece and out the exhaust. The flow diverter in the mouthpiece was specifically designed to take advantage of the strong venturi flow the Argonaut can be adjusted to. No excessive air is allowed to blow-by past the mouthpiece. All the air is directed towards the diver. Once flow is initiated, only the air used by the diver will be supplied with minimum inhalation effort (with no wasted air out the exhaust).

    The sketch below shows three different diverter that were analyzed and 3D model prototypes were tested.

    DSV%20%20%20%20%20%2011-25-2015%20Model%201_zpsmrmo5oov.jpg


    DSV%20%20%20%20%20%2011-25-2015%20Inside%20tube%20_zpsuiashpi2.jpg


    DSV%20%20%20%20%20%2011-25-2015%20Outer%20Tube%201_zpsavfarjfa.jpg


    I will be updating this page in the near future.
     
  2. Luis H

    Luis H Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Maine
    2,962
    1,220
    113
    The Argonaut Kraken regulator you are going to be receiving from Bryan should be adjusted with a cracking effort low enough (just below 1 inWC, but not less than 0.7 inWC). You should not need to adjusted.

    There are several adjustments on the Kraken that can affect the cracking effort, but it is best to understand them well before anyone starts messing with them. There are a few ways of adjusting the second stage spring pressure and intermediate pressure is also easily adjusted. All of it affects the cracking effort.

    The subject of cracking effort and free flow are totally tied together.

    The cracking effort on any regulator (single or double hose) cannot be adjusted less than the distance from the center of the diaphragm to the top edge of the exhaust (in any dive position) or the regulator will free flow when the diver is upside-down or other position that puts the exhaust higher in the water column. I can explain this further when I have more time if it is not immediately clear.

    Another point of interest is that cracking effort adjustments are accomplished in tenths of inches of water column (1/10 or 0.1inWC). On the other hand, a poorly located regulator, could place the regulator easily 1 or 2 inches (or more) vertically higher that the diver, in the water column. That directly translates to an direct increase in cracking effort of 1 or 2 inWC (or more). Therefore it should be obvious that focusing on regulator position is more important and will pay off with a potential of 10 times the benefit as opposed to focusing on very minor cracking effort adjustments.
     
  3. Luis H

    Luis H Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Maine
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    The DSV and flow diverter details.

    Here are some pictures of the new DSV with the flow diverter. The white flow diverter was just a prototype, but I it is dimensionally OK so I thought it would help to show it in pictures.

    DSCN3554_zpse1vxu4ip.jpg


    Notice in this picture that the flow opening in the inside tube is much larger than the mouthpiece opening. I did a very careful section by section analysis and model to make sure there was no flow restriction and that the transition flow direction change is actually more gentle than without the diverter.

    DSCN3547_zpsjslf8ghy.jpg

    DSCN3548_zps3xvagnhc.jpg


    The “V” looking mark is actually an arrow head to indicate the flow direction. This is the exhaust side. You only need to know this if you take it apart. Everything else is symmetrical, but the diverter has an inlet side and an exhaust side.

    DSCN3551_zpssifcctci.jpg


    This picture shows a Viton (brown) O-ring with a partially closed DSV. This is only a transition view. The DSV should be fully open or fully closed during operation.

    DSCN3555_zpssqyqgowx.jpg


    In this picture you can see the black flow diverter in place, but I had to illuminate it in order to see it. When installed with the mouthpiece valves and hoses, it would be too dark to see it without shining a light into the mouthpiece.

    DSCN3558_zpszbp468it.jpg

    You may notice that the mouthpiece opening is one of the largest in the industry. Of the typical standard regulator mouthpiece, it uses the larger one typically available. This was again optimized to reduced flow resistance.
     
  4. Luis H

    Luis H Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Maine
    2,962
    1,220
    113
    The primary change to improve the performance in an Argonaut Kraken is actually very easy and simple. If everything is tuned properly, the only change is to block both of the side ports. That alone will induced a very good and very repeatable venturi flow during inhalation.

    The venturi flow in combination with a low cracking suction will sustain the air flow while there is any demand. The diverter will not allow any air flow to be waster out the exhaust. But I have observed that the inhalation effort is nonexistent once flow is initiated.

    For those who want the ultimate in performance, there are a few checks that the owner may want to make, to optimize the regulator. Some things are easy to check and adjust, like lever height and IP. The cracking effort is not hard to measure if you have the right set-up.
     
  5. Luis H

    Luis H Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Maine
    2,962
    1,220
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    Here I am showing one side blocked

    P8133641_zpstsudx3zo.jpg


    Other side:

    P8133642_zpsx2hc26w1.jpg


    Both:

    P8133645_zpssr23x9kn.jpg


    P8133651_zpsct9lrzut.jpg


    P8133650_zpsp9r9u4yb.jpg



    This gives you an indication of the lever height, but I will expand on this more later. You should not need to do anything with the lever height. It should be fine, but I will explain how to check it later. I am just using the scale as a straight edge.

    P8133674_zpswhusxtpo.jpg


    I am pressing a bit with my Mistral tool. Again, more later.

    DSCN3659_zpskfwxxfai.jpg


    The nozzle points down the full diameter horn. The nozzle flow forms a cone. That is why I designed the can with a full circular tube horn.

    P8133649_zps1ajjuf37.jpg


    The vintage metal cans are attractive and they work well, but the rectangular horn base is not ideal to develop maximum venturi flow. They are good enough for most flow rates, but the Argonaut can was optimized for all flow rates and the DSV flow diverter is essential to take advantage of the maximum venturi flow.

    DSCN3618_zps5uosssk9.jpg


    This can was optimized for production (with the soldered or brazed horns) not for flow performance. The rectangular horn base is the same as in the early Broxton regulators with no induced venturi flow at all.

    A full sized circular tube horn would have been much more difficult to attach with a clean transition on this can.

    DSCN3629_zps4mmswewt.jpg


    I will be adding more later and I will probably separate this post into a new thread talking about optimizing the overall Argonaut performance, but I needed to provide some advance information.

    I hope this helps.
     
    txgoose likes this.
  6. Rusty Shackleford

    Rusty Shackleford Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Port Canaveral Florida
    650
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    Luis, I have had my Krakens a couple of years but not gotten them wet. That is going to change soon.

    Is there a PDF operations manual available online? I haven’t been able to find one.
     
  7. Luis H

    Luis H Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Maine
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    Wow, a couple of years owning Argonauts and they haven’t been in the water.

    There is no owner’s manual for an Argonaut.

    The good news is that from a user stand point it dives just like most double hose regulators before it, except that it is easier breathing (if adjusted properly). From a double hose regulator, user point of view the only thing new is the closing valve in the DSV mouthpiece.

    OK, I realize this doesn’t help much if you have never dove a double hose regulator or are not familiar with them. Well in that respect, the other good news is the DH regulators are fairly user friendly if you take your time familiarizing yourself with them.

    When DH regulators were the most common regulators around we didn’t have users manuals that came with them. We surely never heard of PDF files. :wink:

    There is plenty of good literature in books and articles about the differences on diving a double hose versus a single hose. The differences are small, but it is worth learning about them. If you go to the VDH website I think there is a lot of good information.

    I think there is probably a lot of good information in different posts around here. Maybe @herman , @Nemrod , @couv , or one of the other “usual suspects”, familiar with the Argonaut will drop in an direct you to some more good information.

    BTW, if you develop good DSV closing discipline (like with a re-breather), always closing the DSV before removing the mouthpiece from your mouth, you will always have a very dry breathing loop.

    Reading about different techniques of how to clear a DH mouthpiece (the old fashion ways) and how it breathes in different position is always helpful, but you will need to get in the water (in a control safe spot) and experiment. The ideal situation is if you had a local mentor that could help you, but don’t be intimidated about getting in the water and playing with it. That is the way most of us learned how to use it, in the “old days”.


    I just saw an article about "care & maintenance of DH regulators in VDH that I didn't know it even existed (Care & Maintenance | Vintage Double Hose). There is a lot of great information between these two messages boards if you just do a little looking around.
     
    couv and Scuba Lawyer like this.
  8. Luis H

    Luis H Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Maine
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    In these few links below you will find a lot more information about the Argonaut Kraken that what you will find in most regulators owners manual.

    In several occasion I have considered and wanted to consolidate all of the information into one PDF file. It is easier said than done. For me, this is purely a hobby. I an engineer and designing a regulator is fun, but editing documents... not so much. I have placed the information in these and a few other threads, but have attempted to consolidate it and that has not been as much fun... Just read read through it.

    Argonaut Kraken specifications

    Argonaut Mechanism - diagram and parts list

    ARGONAUT DSV design information. - Vintage Double Hose

    General DH information:
    Care & Maintenance | Vintage Double Hose


    There is also a section on the VDH message board dedicated to the Argonaut Krake, the Phoenix, etc. At the top there a lot of pinned threads with relevant information. A lot of it is repeated in the links above.
    Phoenix and Argonaut Specialty Area - Vintage Double Hose
     
    txgoose and couv like this.
  9. txgoose

    txgoose ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: Houston
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    I have a brand new DSV. It is incredibly tight to move from closed to open, or the reverse of that, after it has been sitting for a while. When I first took it out of the box, I assumed it was somehow locked up. I could not budge the thing. The webbing between my thumb and index finger was becoming raw from my attempts to twist the body tube around the diverter tube. Eventually after watching Bryan's video and looking at this thread I realized that it was just a tube inside a tube (in terms of the mechanics of twisting it open or closed). I eventually put on some leather gloves for better grip and got it to move. Once it has been "broke free", it really moves fairly freely as long as I mess with it. Snug, but the effort appears to match the effort I perceived in Bryan's video. But if I come back to it an hour later it is crazy tight again. Do I need to hit the o-ring around the opening above the diverter with a tiny amount of cristolube? Or all the o-rings?

    After mounting the hose and the hose clamp, I thought that the hose clamp would give me enough grip to rotate the diverter. And when it is dry that is true. But when I got to take my new to me PAAM(?) out this past weekend, the lake water appeared to lube up the hose enough that the hose and clamp just spun around the diverter body when I applied rotational pressure to twist it open. When I could open and close it, it was the bee's knees without a doubt.

    Thoughts?
     
  10. Fibonacci

    Fibonacci Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    627
    599
    93
    Firstly many thanks to @Luis H for consolidating all this info into one location and for the background on the DSV design process... very interesting!

    I had exactly the same issue with my DSV, after sitting in my dive bag, over time the o-rings would lock it up solid.
    Even in the water operation would be very stiff and tend to rotate the entire assembly in the hose a bit meaning the DSV mouthpiece was not oriented in the most comfortable position. Tried multiple different types of o-ring lube, no difference.
    Located in Australia, service kits are a long way off and shipping is expensive.

    So... I decided to experiment with different Duro o-rings after a chance comment by Peter Katz (of Sea Hornet regulator fame) who said they had a lot of trouble with the rotating Turbo Boost collar o-ring tension causing it to become unusably stiff in storage/transit to the customer. They changed o-ring spec from 70 Shore A to 50 Shore A and had no further problems.

    I ordered in some 50, 70 and 90 Shore A o-rings to test:
    ASA568-028 for the inner barrel and mouthpiece port, -027 for the wagon wheels.
    AS568-027 B50 (NBR) Buna-N Nitrile 50 Duro O-Ring [B50027] : The O-Ring Store LLC, We make getting O-Rings easy!
    AS568-028 B50 (NBR) Buna-N Nitrile 50 Duro O-Ring [B50028] : The O-Ring Store LLC, We make getting O-Rings easy!
    90 SA worked for a time then locked up solid, worse than OEM condition.
    70 SA seemed to perform same as OEM
    50 SA worked very well, deformed easily so no more lockups or leakage!​
    Only issue being so soft they were sensitive to being cut a little by the mouthpiece aperture if you are not careful to rotate the barrel during installation.

    ANYWAY my 2BAR... it worked for me!
     
    couv and txgoose like this.

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