Article: Self Reliance and Tech Diving

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I love that example, because it's a perfect place to have the conversation.

I'd be royally ticked at a teammate who did that. That's NOT what diving as a team is about! So many people seem to think that team diving means you take a lax approach to things and just hope your team is there to bail your butt out of the trouble you get yourself into. NOTHING could be further from the truth. Team diving is about meticulous planning and being absolutely sure your own skills are up to par -- and that would include solving a freeflowing regulator within a few seconds, and without any assistance from anyone. It is extremely easy to shut a post, and if it isn't, you work at it until it is. Had I not been able to shut a post promptly and easily, I would never have been passed forward to do ANY technical instruction with GUE.

Once the post is closed, one can try reopening it and playing with the reg, or the team can simply decide to exit. If the diver with the freeflow somehow ended up losing a significant amount of gas (i.e. the problem occurred at max pen) then he's sandwiched on exit, so that if, in the end, he needs some gas from a buddy to get to his deco gas or to the surface, it is absolutely trivial for someone to provide that. And since the closer you get to the exit, the bigger everybody's reserves loom, it's not an issue.

Maybe this is the difference between deep wreck penetrations and cave diving. I don't know, but I don't think so.

I think the primary disconnect is between people who dive with a random assortment of buddies, and people who do their edge-of-their-personal-envelope dives as a team. I don't blame John Chatterton for being bemused by a team having to go over gas-sharing protocols prior to a very deep or penetration dive. I wouldn't do those dives with people with whom it was necessary to review signals or emergency procedures. When I do tech dives, I do them with people who already know exactly what we are going to do and how we are going to do it, and how we are going to deal with any of the common issues that might occur. If we don't have that much in common, we don't do any dive where I think the risk is very high. I would not have done Mr. Chatterton's Doria dives at all; I don't think that way. I don't dive solo, even if it's in the presence of other people, except on dives I WOULD do solo if there were no one else there . . . and those are pretty simple dives.

We talk past one another, because we live in different worlds and we see everything through completely different lenses. If you hand-pick your companions for strong skills, solid planning, conservative attitudes, and a spirit of teamwork, it's DIFFERENT from trying to do big dives with people from widely varying backgrounds and with whom you don't have enough experience to predict what they are going to do. I still don't think I could push someone out of gas away from me and tell them to breathe their deco gas and tox. It's not in me, which is why I don't put myself in any position where I might ever have to do it.
 
Good article John. I understood the message and the context that it was given in.

Deep tech dives are serious business
Each diver needs to take his/her needs seriously
Don't expect your buddy to pick up the slack, at their risk, because you were too lazy to properly prepare yourself.
Accept that or don't do deep tech dives.

These cave divers discuss just this concept at 6:30 of this video [video=youtube;qNX5eo2Ja1g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNX5eo2Ja1g[/video]

I consider myself a good buddy in many ways and will always help if I can, but no part of my personal safety plan includes dependance on someone else. This is the limiting factor to my diving. Even if I do have a buddy, if I can't do it myself, I don't do it.
 
I still don't think I could push someone out of gas away from me and tell them to breathe their deco gas and tox. It's not in me, which is why I don't put myself in any position where I might ever have to do it.

Now you're getting to the crux of it...



So... (I should add, that John's article was not about cave diving, he wasn't thinking about cave diving at all, it was about diving in the ocean.)

John was saying he was somewhat amused that our companions were reviewing OOA procedures for a well planned dive to 215 feet. It was not a little 60 foot dive for 45 minutes, it was (their dive) a planned 215 feet for 10 or 15 minutes. Divers were wearing double tanks with more than 200 cubic feet each, plus carrying 2 40 cu/ft tanks each with their deco gasses.

Here are some questions about deep diving:

Did you have a complete gas loss at depth? How long would it take for a freeflowing isolator bar to empty the gas from a tank? How could gas loss happen so quickly that you were unable to ascend to a safe depth where you could breathe your deco gas?

What if you did have to breathe 4.0 ATA's of PO2? Would that kill you instantly, or could you then start to ascend as quickly as possible to a safe depth to breathe your deco gas, and complete your decompression? Would you at least take your chances?

His point was that how could you run out of gas? Aren't you carrying more than one gas? Is your back gas your only gas? And again, if people don't know the answers to these questions, then they have no business making 200+ foot dives.

Running out of back gas on a deep dive happens for either catastrophic gas loss, or just poor planning. Poor planning means you may have been in over your head, and don't know simple things like your own SAC rate, and how to plan a dive.

Clearly, a dive buddy is another good backup he wasn't saying "don't dive with a buddy" - We do dive as buddy teams, and do plan on helping each other.

It seems a few people have fixated on (and tried to assassinate John's character with) his "i'll fight for my regulator" statement which is a) a scare tactic to let people know that they need to be prepared and SELF-RELIANT if they're making seriously deep dives. b) certainly true in a life or death situation where the choice between TWO deaths or ONE death must be made.
 
Now you're getting to the crux of it...



So... (I should add, that John's article was not about cave diving, he wasn't thinking about cave diving at all, it was about diving in the ocean.)

John was saying he was somewhat amused that our companions were reviewing OOA procedures for a well planned dive to 215 feet. It was not a little 60 foot dive for 45 minutes, it was (their dive) a planned 215 feet for 10 or 15 minutes. Divers were wearing double tanks with more than 200 cubic feet each, plus carrying 2 40 cu/ft tanks each with their deco gasses.

Here are some questions about deep diving:

Did you have a complete gas loss at depth? How long would it take for a freeflowing isolator bar to empty the gas from a tank? How could gas loss happen so quickly that you were unable to ascend to a safe depth where you could breathe your deco gas?

What if you did have to breathe 4.0 ATA's of PO2? Would that kill you instantly, or could you then start to ascend as quickly as possible to a safe depth to breathe your deco gas, and complete your decompression? Would you at least take your chances?

His point was that how could you run out of gas? Aren't you carrying more than one gas? Is your back gas your only gas? And again, if people don't know the answers to these questions, then they have no business making 200+ foot dives.

Running out of back gas on a deep dive happens for either catastrophic gas loss, or just poor planning. Poor planning means you may have been in over your head, and don't know simple things like your own SAC rate, and how to plan a dive.

Clearly, a dive buddy is another good backup he wasn't saying "don't dive with a buddy" - We do dive as buddy teams, and do plan on helping each other.

It seems a few people have fixated on (and tried to assassinate John's character with) his "i'll fight for my regulator" statement which is a) a scare tactic to let people know that they need to be prepared and SELF-RELIANT if they're making seriously deep dives. b) certainly true in a life or death situation where the choice between TWO deaths or ONE death must be made.

I think I would rather share bottom gas than breath 4.0 PP of Oxygen, and shoot for the surface. Is this what he teaches?
 
This is a very interesting thread, because Chatterton IS a diving legend. No doubt about it. He is not the type of diver I would probably choose to dive with, because he is into a kind of diving I do not share a passion for. Being a diving legend does not equal him being right. There is a smarter way to dive today, widely available and not only from GUE, but from quite a lot of instructors with different agencies. A very different mindset to making challenging dives. Tech diving is not for the "crazy people". It´s just for people that are willing to prepare further. You are underwater when you dive. 40ft can kill you, as much as 200ft can kill you. The NEW diving mentality has to do with this fact, and with becoming a thinking diver.

John Chatterton IS a diving legend, but his view of diving is a bit stuck 25 years ago. That doesn´t make him right, or wrong. You choose what you want to believe and respect. To people interested in tech diving, there is a MUCH younger school of thought, were it is all about making safe, enjoyable and fun dives that 25 years ago could only be performed by the likes of Chatterton. Yeah, making them a SMARTER way does not mean they have any less value.
 
I think I would rather share bottom gas than breath 4.0 PP of Oxygen, and shoot for the surface. Is this what he teaches?

No not at all. There is no option to shoot for the surface.

People learn how to make sensible choices.

Maybe you should take the class, because clearly you don't get it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2
 
After reading all the verbiage in two threads, I am not sure there are many points of disagreement. I think everyone agrees that everyone undertaking a deep technical dive should be properly prepared, which means bringing the proper equipment, being skilled in its use, knowing how much gas is needed for the dive (with adequate reserves), and bringing said gas. Such a diver should never need assistance from a teammate, and using such assistance is never part of a dive plan.

Does anyone disagree?

It seems to me that the part of the article that has things stirred up is when John says (with great emphasis) that he will absolutely refuse to assist someone who somehow, despite all that preparation, does need help at depth. If a teammate has a problem, tough cookies. Solve it on your own.

Howard then said John did not really mean that--he regularly writes articles in which he says emphatically the opposite of what he means just to make people think. John, however, has never said that, and some of what Howard said after that makes me wonder as well. I almost feel as if the sentiment is "Oh. Are you having a catastrophic gas loss? Well, I'm sure you can handle it. I'll just continue the dive while you deal with it. See you topside--if you make it."

Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me that the refusal to help issue is the main disagreement.
 
After reading all the verbiage in two threads, I am not sure there are many points of disagreement. I think everyone agrees that everyone undertaking a deep technical dive should be properly prepared, which means bringing the proper equipment, being skilled in its use, knowing how much gas is needed for the dive (with adequate reserves), and bringing said gas. Such a diver should never need assistance from a teammate, and using such assistance is never part of a dive plan.

Does anyone disagree?

It seems to me that the part of the article that has things stirred up is when John says (with great emphasis) that he will absolutely refuse to assist someone who somehow, despite all that preparation, does need help at depth. If a teammate has a problem, tough cookies. Solve it on your own.

Howard then said John did not really mean that--he regularly writes articles in which he says emphatically the opposite of what he means just to make people think. John, however, has never said that, and some of what Howard said after that makes me wonder as well. I almost feel as if the sentiment is "Oh. Are you having a catastrophic gas loss? Well, I'm sure you can handle it. I'll just continue the dive while you deal with it. See you topside--if you make it."

Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me that the refusal to help issue is the main disagreement.

John has never refused to help someone.
This just isn't worth it anymore.... bye

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2
 
No not at all. There is no option to shoot for the surface.

People learn how to make sensible choices.

Maybe you should take the class, because clearly you don't get it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

I try to learn stuff by reading the internets. I may never have the money or motivation to dive double tanks, use He and all the other stuff that is necessary for real technical diving. I admit, I am having a tough time getting it.

You know I dive solo, sometimes to 200 feet and have zero training for it, but understand the concept of self-sufficiency. What I can't get my mind around are the conflicting statements about breathing wrong gases and helping or not helping etc.

Based on my reading, it is my understanding that using the wrong gas at the wrong depth, is one of the most dangerous things for a tech diver and it has killed a lot of people. Much of the protocols are intended to make such an accident highly unlikely, yet some of the comments that you and John make seem to be contradictory to this. When I carry oxygen, it is always with a great deal of respect.

John has made it very clear that he is not talking figuratively when he speaks of "fighting me for it" (his back-up regulator). Is this taught in the class? It seems like an important issue, because it has been repeated, it represents a "sticking point" for many people and seems to be an integral part of John's emergency plan. I even highlighted it and asked for clarification and the response was pretty clear and even more harsh and served to reinforce that he meant what he said and I was not taking anything out of context.

Are small women who presumably have very inferior upper body strength to someone like me (or any athletic over 200-lb male) being taught special techniques that facilitate this type of response? I'm serious here.

To be honest, the more I read of these two threads, the less likely I would be to seek training from someone who expresses ideas that are either difficult to understand or seemingly inconsistent with my own mindset. On the other hand, maybe if I really wanted to extend my personal, solo diving capabilities, John would be the perfect person for it.
 
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