Article: Send Lawyers, Guns, and Money

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What a choice: conspiracy theory-lite over what gets posted where on a free online forum, versus obsequious pedantry in defense of another who needs no defending. I say a plague o' both your houses.

Obscurative pederasty? Are we moving in the direction of Canon Law?

Without mouth breathers the amount litigation in American courtrooms would diminish dramatically. Anyone who thinks the average political leader is a product of the typical American family has a supply of Owsley Purple that I greatly envy. To suggest that someone who prefers the 'loser pays' British system of litigation should move to the UK is in the same low company as those who suggest that people who believe in required vacations and paid holidays for working people should move to Canada. Or Germany. Or almost anyplace else.

There are some highly ethical lawyers, just as there are some highly ethical pharmaceutical industry executives and some prelates who are chaste as well as celibate. But the number of exceptions in each case is rather substantial. Perhaps overwhelmingly.

There are almost no highly ethical politicians. A few may be moderately ethical, but very few. I think most of these politicians, those either totally devoid of ethics or those with a few driblets of honesty remaining, have similar professional training and backgrounds.
 
Anyway, I find that your paper may have drawn some false conclusions, but completely understandable for Canada. First, as a quasi socialist country, you want the government to protect the people. I am born American to Canadian parents, so I have spent some time in Canada visiting. I'm not trying to be insulting, but you have a bigger nanny state than I ever hope to live in. The industry is not going to let basic safety rules slide just because they have a waiver for their own negligence or gross negligence. "Come ski Whistler. We have more Helicopter crashes than anyone" or "Jump on the high speed quad at Red Mountain. We last serviced it over 10 years ago and it's still running great!" are not exactly ways to gain confidence or customers. Word of mouth is the best or worst advertising you can have, so ski areas are not going to skimp on basic safety just for giggles.

A dive operation can in fact do everything right and a customer can still trip and fall down the stairs and break a leg. That's why we have insurance and waivers. We are trying to protect ourselves from the customers' lack or preparation or ham handedness.

Sorry to have pushed a hot button.:) This is personal to you. It isn't for me which allows a different perspective. Not necessarily better, just different. However it is personal in that I have given this particular issue a lot of thought so have some opinions. Apologies for being so long.

Your last paragraph describes the root of the problem perfectly:

You do everything right, customer trips and falls. Yet you feel that you need a waiver and insurance to protect yourself. Doing everything right is not enough.

In the perfect world you shouldn't need a waiver to protect yourself from a customer that trips and falls on a boat where you do everything right. Boats are inherently places where people trip and fall. It wasn't your fault so there was no negligence - customer shouldn't be able to successfully sue. However given the real world you need the waiver and insurance to protect yourself even from things that happen that are not your fault. Which creates a problem. If you get a waiver to protect yourself from things that are not your fault and the courts use that waiver to protect you then the waiver will also protect you from things that ARE your fault and the courts really don't like that so in those cases they find ways around the waiver. As these cases exist then lawyers will use the same arguments that were successful in getting around the waiver when it was your fault to try and get around the waivers in cases where the thing that happened is not your fault. Catch 22

I have to take issue with a couple of other things. Nanny state - perhaps, but has nothing to do with this one. The ski industry worldwide was reacting to a US court ruling in favour of a skier that had successfully sued a ski hill for a fall on the bunny hill. As I recall the skier tripped on an uncovered root and suffered very serious injuries. Sent everyone into a panic to make government step in and protect industry from the courts. Who is the nanny state here and who wanted protection - business wanted protection from the courts, not regular folks looking to the government for protection. We - the rest of the world - was reacting to the "US litigation as windfall lottery" system which attempts to use financial "punishment" to control behavior. Whereas the Canadian system by and large attempts to compensate for the actual damage done which limits litigation lottery’s.

The business in this particular case had advertised skiing as an absolutely safe activity on their hill. Stupid (in my view) and the result was correct as if they were advertising the sport as absolutely safe then they needed to be particularly attentive to hazards on their slopes - particularly on the bunny hill where beginners would not be able to avoid any obstacles. But for the assumption of risk in advertising the activity as completely safe AND the negligence in not marking or covering the obstacle on a bunny hill the result would have been completely different. You undertake a dangerous activity you accept the consequences. You advertise that the activity is not dangerous to attract people to your business then you also accept the consequences.

If you were to advertise diving on your boat as completely risk free - that would be equally as stupid and if you were to do so, and someone got hurt because you were negligent (say knowingly not replacing the non skid on a ladder) then you would and should be held responsible IMHO. I can't imagine you advertising that diving from the Spree is a completely safe activity. I can imagine someone else doing it however, in an effort to generate business.

Waivers are interesting from a legal/societal perspective. Courts US or Canada really, really don't like them, and they really don't like back of the ticket waivers in particular. They want them to be completely clear, people to sign them knowing what they are signing and even then they will look for just about any reason to throw them away if there truly is fault to be found and particularly if the fault is egregious. Ultimately I think this is a good thing. Place the risk of behavior by and large where it should be. You do something that puts someone else at risk you get the consequences.

IMHO and many courts opinions you should not be able to use a waiver to protect yourself from your own misdeeds. In simple terms most courts believe that, if you screw up a waiver should not protect you and if you REALLY screw up it will not protect you. I as a diver can't protect myself from you doing something wrong so why should signing a piece of paper shift that responsibility from you to me. Only you can control you and I often don't have the knowledge to even evaluate what you should or should not be doing. For example I as a diver boarding your boat have absolutely no idea if you have skipped changing the filters on your compressor this week because the cash flow is a bit tight. I rely on your past reputation and government regulation, and as you say the consequences of the media reporting on such a failure. But ultimately I just don't know. Only you know that - so why should signing a piece of paper absolve you of any damage to me that might result from that decision. If i get sick and have to go to hospital, take time off work etc. etc. as a result of your actions why should you be protected. The piece of paper doesn't get you out of the bad publicity such a failure brings so your business will suffer, but your business suffering does not make me right for your failure. This in its essentials is why courts will bend over backwards to get around a waiver.

The problem these days as I see it anyway is that the definition of "screwing up" is screwed up by courts that know that ultimately insurance companies will pay and plaintiffs that are sympathetic. i.e. the widow and 5 kids who just lost a husband v a faceless insurance company. Makes for bad law far too often, and particularly in jurisdictions where judges need to be popular. So a judge can find that you have been "negligent" for some pretty marginal behavior. The courts can be really creative in finding ways to get a result they want.

If you let people know that diving is dangerous, provide them with a waiver that reminds them that diving is dangerous and then have them knowingly sign such a waiver then perhaps you can avoid responsibility - even though you didn't replace the non skid. A tricky line to draw as diving is dangerous, boats are dangerous, maintenance on a working boat is hard to keep up with, but in this particular hypothetical case you knew that the non skid was not replaced, you would have known that without the non skid someone could fall and hurt themselves. Should the waiver protect you? Personally as a diver I vote no, I can't fix the boat and I didn't know that there was a problem when I jumped in so why should you be let off the hook when I fall coming back on board. I hired you to provide a boat that is working and is reasonably safe. You screwed up not me. You should be held responsible and a waiver should not let you off the hook. To do so would put the responsibility for the boats maintenance and safety on the wrong person.

Where this falls apart is when your failure has a very tenuous link to the damage. Allowing me to dive solo without checking my certification to do so. I die and someone sues. Personally I don't see how you should be held responsible, but I can also see some lawyer trying it on. If you had checked I would not have been diving solo and may or may not have died. Personally I doubt that such a case could be won, but in the US the potential payoff can be so high that it becomes worth trying. The argument being that the industry standard for liveaboard boats worldwide is that you only allow solo diving if the diver is certified. You didn't check and allowed an uncertified diver to dive beyond their capabilities. Personally I think this is BS, that is my responsibility - not yours - and within my control so the responsibility should be on me not you, but at least in the US a court might just rule against you. Doubt it, but anything is possible with the right judge and a sympathetic plaintiff. That together with litigation as lottery and you get cases that should not have even started.

Relying on "word of mouth" and the media to ensure that businesses provide a safe environment is not on. Far too many examples of this not working. A healthy fear of the consequences of screwing up seems much more immediate and as for the nanny state - the US provides much more in the way of consequences than any Canadian court does. That is much more in the US mythology than the reality.

With respect to "basic safety rules". The reality is that there are far too many business ignoring basic safety rules - irrespective of any waiver. I would just prefer that they not get away with such behavior by getting an unsuspecting public to sign a piece of paper. In this particular instance the results were immediate and significant on ski hills - not on basic stuff, but on things that they knew were safety issues and had caused injuries in the past but had also ignored - on both sides of the border. It was fascinating to watch. Simple things like safety nets protecting equipment parked near runs. Before, rare, after, everywhere. I suspect the insurance industry was the real driving force.

On the cost of litigation I couldn't agree more. I managed to get through my entire life without going to court as plaintiff or defendant. A number of times I could have been the plaintiff but knowing what I know about the justice system and seeing the damage it has done to several friends I have always just walked away. The justice system is far too expensive, takes such a personal toll, and takes far too long to come to a final decision. It just does not do very well as a dispute resolution system for society. There has to be a better way - we just have not found one and I have to say having spent some significant time working with some very bright people who were actively trying to find that better way - I would not hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
 
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The solution is simple. Loser pays court and attorney costs. Then baseless cases will never end up in court on pure economics...
 
The solution is simple. Loser pays court and attorney costs. Then baseless cases will never end up in court on pure economics...

No, then defendants will just factor into settlement calculations the fact that on top of damages they'd have to also pay for the plaintiff's legal fees in the event they lost. And there's almost never a sure thing in litigation. To the extent it was a sure thing (i.e., completely frivolous claim asserted against you) there's usually a provision for sanctions to cover your costs of defending against it.
 
No, then defendants will just factor into settlement calculations the fact that on top of damages they'd have to also pay for the plaintiff's legal fees in the event they lost. And there's almost never a sure thing in litigation. To the extent it was a sure thing (i.e., completely frivolous claim asserted against you) there's usually a provision for sanctions to cover your costs of defending against it.

How about the plaintiff can only recover actual damages? Why does someone have a right to sue for millions of dollars when their actual damages were in the tens of thousands? I'm all for balancing the playing field for the little guy, but the little guy shouldn't get to nuke the big guy for gobzillions just because the big guy has deeper pockets.
 
No, then defendants will just factor into settlement calculations the fact that on top of damages they'd have to also pay for the plaintiff's legal fees in the event they lost. And there's almost never a sure thing in litigation. To the extent it was a sure thing (i.e., completely frivolous claim asserted against you) there's usually a provision for sanctions to cover your costs of defending against it.

"Factoring in" any extra costs in a settlement situation almost invariably means the people doing the factoring in, usually corporate, entertainment, or similar lawyers are representing people who have far too much money/power, people who throw whole social systems out of any semblance of balance. There are exceptions, as any physician or small business owner finds out when simple cost/benefit calculations are made by their insurer, totally independently of any concept of what is true, what is just, or what the insured wants.

As far as reimbursement for frivolous claims are concerned, I tried to find some statistics in that connection in NJ. The court system here, and elsewhere, is reluctant to discuss anything related to that category. They mix it in with everything else. Procedural obfuscation. I found only a few cases, most involving very small amounts of money, and a few involving much more money brought by policemen who sued people who called them thugs in the newspapers because they broke into the wrong house, beat the hell out of innocent people living next door to the warranted target, and were accurately described as drunk morons.

Reimbursement for frivolous litigation is a bad joke, especially since so much of that sort of thing comes from penniless prison inmates acting pro se. Some of them are in fact innocent, but who gives a crap in criminal justice systems where defense attorneys brag about getting the guilty off, and prosecutors are not considered to have made their bones until they convict a few innocent defendants. "Anybody can convict a guilty defendant", seasoned prosecutors will tell you, "but it takes some skill to put innocent people in prison." The civil justice systems are worse.
 
How about the plaintiff can only recover actual damages? Why does someone have a right to sue for millions of dollars when their actual damages were in the tens of thousands? I'm all for balancing the playing field for the little guy, but the little guy shouldn't get to nuke the big guy for gobzillions just because the big guy has deeper pockets.

Define "actual damages." Sure, you can scrap punitives easily enough, but that's not generally where the money comes in for these kinds of claims and punitives are the easiest to have reduced on appellate review anyway.

The problem comes in where you're trying to put a dollar figure on real but non-quantifiable damages like pain and suffering, loss of consortium, loss of enjoyment of life, etc. Saying it's all bull:censored: and can't be recovered either sounds good until you realize that there are cases where millions of dollars for pain and suffering and/or loss of enjoyment of life are perfectly appropriate. The tricky part is parsing the crap claims from the legitimate ones and nothing anyone here has said really goes very far towards addressing that issue.

Reimbursement for frivolous litigation is a bad joke, especially since so much of that sort of thing comes from penniless prison inmates acting pro se. Some of them are in fact innocent, but who gives a crap in criminal justice systems where defense attorneys brag about getting the guilty off, and prosecutors are not considered to have made their bones until they convict a few innocent defendants. "Anybody can convict a guilty defendant", seasoned prosecutors will tell you, "but it takes some skill to put innocent people in prison." The civil justice systems are worse.


Uh huh.
 
Define "actual damages." Sure, you can scrap punitives easily enough, but that's not generally where the money comes in for these kinds of claims and punitives are the easiest to have reduced on appellate review anyway.

The problem comes in where you're trying to put a dollar figure on real but non-quantifiable damages like pain and suffering, loss of consortium, loss of enjoyment of life, etc. Saying it's all bull:censored: and can't be recovered either sounds good until you realize that there are cases where millions of dollars for pain and suffering and/or loss of enjoyment of life are perfectly appropriate. The tricky part is parsing the crap claims from the legitimate ones and nothing anyone here has said really goes very far towards addressing that issue.

Interesting. Our Courts handled the non-quantifiable damages you describe by capping them at $100,00 indexed to inflation in 1978. There is no cap on quantifiable damages. So if you are damaged and end up a brain damaged quadrapalegic you can claim for all your future medical expenses, your future loss of income, and other measureable losses, but only about $350,00 in todays dollars for pain and suffering etc.. It has been a very long time since I read the trilogy of cases but as I recall the reasoning was that as there was no way to actually measure or truly compensate for these damages a cap had to be created that was clear and easily understood to avoid the unreasonable escalation of awards. The decision is worth reading for the discussions of the underlying policy reasons for the choices the courts made. Lots of academic discussion about the reasonableness of the amount, but on balance it has turned out to work well. There truly is no way to measure or compensate for these damages so a defined cap has eliminated the litigation lottery system that preceeded it and is in place where such a cap does not exist. It also makes settling such disputes much easier. Quantifiable damages are relatively easy to measure. That plus the cap amount is the maximum you can win. If liability is decided or obvious then there really isn't a good reason to go to court to figure out how much the damages are. the possible range is fairly easy to figure out.

Not saying it is better or worse here. I have seen people severely damaged and $350,000 does not even come close to truly compensating them for thier loss, but the cap has eliminated the chaos that I see in the US around this issue without a cap.

Hope that this is not too far off topic.
 
Interesting. Our Courts handled the non-quantifiable damages you describe by capping them at $100,00 indexed to inflation in 1978. There is no cap on quantifiable damages. So if you are damaged and end up a brain damaged quadrapalegic you can claim for all your future medical expenses, your future loss of income, and other measureable losses, but only about $350,00 in todays dollars for pain and suffering etc.. It has been a very long time since I read the trilogy of cases but as I recall the reasoning was that as there was no way to actually measure or truly compensate for these damages a cap had to be created that was clear and easily understood to avoid the unreasonable escalation of awards.

Without delving too far into tort theory, a key part of the US approach is the idea that money can be used to allow the injured/disabled/harmed person to substitute something similarly fulfilling for the non-quantifiable loss. If, for example, a defendant negligently caused a man whose passion was long-distance running to lose the use of his legs, the ideal award for that loss would enable the plaintiff to buy a substitue amount of happiness however they thought best, separate and apart from lost income or heath care. It's a pretty nebulous concept and it's obviously not applicable to all non-quantifiable harms, but it's not a bad way to try and understand tort law's intent.

In a way, it makes sense to place a high dollar figure on those sorts of harms. If someone negligently deprived me of the use of my legs, about the only thing that would prevent me from hunting them down and shooting a hole through their spinal cord around T10 would be knowing there was a meaningful possibility of my finding alternative ways to fully enjoy life. That's not going to be cheap. And neither health care (designed to treat the injury and rehabilitate as far as possbile) nor lost income (to compensate for the lower level of income I'd likely realize going forward) will cover that cost. What's needed is a damage award to put me in as good a position as I would be with two functioning legs.

On the other hand, what number that would be is hard to come up with because really, not many people would trade good health for any amount of money. And of course wherever there's the possibility of a big pay out for people who actually need it, there'll be plenty angling for it who don't.
 
Without delving too far into tort theory, a key part of the US approach is the idea that money can be used to allow the injured/disabled/harmed person to substitute something similarly fulfilling for the non-quantifiable loss. If, for example, a defendant negligently caused a man whose passion was long-distance running to lose the use of his legs, the ideal award for that loss would enable the plaintiff to buy a substitue amount of happiness however they thought best, separate and apart from lost income or heath care. It's a pretty nebulous concept and it's obviously not applicable to all non-quantifiable harms, but it's not a bad way to try and understand tort law's intent.

In a way, it makes sense to place a high dollar figure on those sorts of harms. If someone negligently deprived me of the use of my legs, about the only thing that would prevent me from hunting them down and shooting a hole through their spinal cord around T10 would be knowing there was a meaningful possibility of my finding alternative ways to fully enjoy life. That's not going to be cheap. And neither health care (designed to treat the injury and rehabilitate as far as possbile) nor lost income (to compensate for the lower level of income I'd likely realize going forward) will cover that cost. What's needed is a damage award to put me in as good a position as I would be with two functioning legs.

On the other hand, what number that would be is hard to come up with because really, not many people would trade good health for any amount of money. And of course wherever there's the possibility of a big pay out for people who actually need it, there'll be plenty angling for it who don't.

Understand that, and the Canadian theory is that no amount of money can compensate for quality of life kinds of damages so other public policy considerations become more important. Particularly consistancy across the country and a cap on spiraling awards to prevent a US kind of system where excessive awards breed even more excessive awards that have huge consequenses to the public in general (think medical malpractice insurance as an example). The amount was based not on compensating for the loss, but to provide an amount that was enough to ameliorate the condition of the victim. That is, an amount of money that could assist the victim to have a better quality of life. There is quite a bit of discussion around trying to increase the basic cap, but so far the Supreme Court has not allowed an appeal on any case that might change this number.

Just a different approach with a whole different set of problems.
 
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