back plate and wing for a 10 year old?

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I would echo the advice to check with the instructor. Even some tech oriented shops don't like to teach beginning students in BP&Ws. The usual reason given is the difficulty some students have removing and replacing the BP&W while in the water.

to quote @cerich again, that is an equipment solution to a skills problem. In this case the skills problem is on the instructors inability to effectively teach them how to conduct that skill.
 
to quote @cerich again, that is an equipment solution to a skills problem. In this case the skills problem is on the instructors inability to effectively teach them how to conduct that skill.

Doesn't really matter much if there are no good instructors available who are comfortable teaching young beginners this way.

I reject much of the Scubaboard hubris about beginning open water instruction:
- It is not necessary and (for many students) not helpful to take a militaristic or authoritarian approach to teaching.
- Teaching experience and small class size are the best predictors of quality instruction.
- There are many excellent instructors who have zero interest in technical diving or equipment or in equipment or skills that are traditionally part of a tech configuration (BP&W, naked SPG, bungeed secondary, etc).
- Younger students are best served by instructors who have experience working with children of a similar age.

Limiting an instructor search to those who will teach a young beginner in a BP&W unnecessarily rules out a large share of the instructor pool -- probably over half. This is especially true in areas where there are no significant technical diving opportunities locally. Keep in mind that the OP is in the St. Louis area. A quick web search turns up a grand total of 9 dive shops in the entire St. Louis metro.
 
@2airishuman
I don't agree with militaristic or authoritarian teaching unless I'm working with ROTC or those that prefer to learn that way. I can and will teach that way, but it is not my style nor the one I recommend. That said, holding hands around a camp-fire while singing kumbaya and telling everyone how great they are is also counterproductive as it instills a false sense of security in ones skills. I don't think there are many of us on this forum that believe that either of those styles of teaching are actually ideal or effective.

Did your quick search for St. Louis diving show that there is actually a good sized contingent of cave divers in that area?
 
Wow this discussion took an interesting turn.

My daughter's PADI (PADI, PADI, PADI) instructor didn't even blink an eye at my daughter's gear other than to state he was glad she had her own gear because learning in what you will ultimately use is beneficial. A bpw is not really all that different (functionally) from a back inflate BCD. Should those be discouraged as well? Are you saying there are instructors teaching diving that only know how to use a jacket?

My daughter had no problem with any of the skills in her bpw including removing/replacing. In fact, she had it on/off faster than all the other people in her class using jackets. And there were 2-3 ft swells in the ocean that day (not a glass surfaced quarry). I don't even understand why this would be more or less challenging for any of the BCD types. I personally believe this skill has more to do with the "divers" ability as a swimmer/comfort in the water than the name of their BCD.

Just back from Cozumel and well more than 50% of the divers on my boats that had their own gear were using bpw as a bcd and half the DMs/instructors were diving bpw. Not a single person gave me a weird look about my bcd. Bpw were all over the place in Bonaire as well. I think bpw are far more common in rec use that you may realize and thus it should not be hard to find a non-jacket only instructor.
 
A bpw is not really all that different (functionally) from a back inflate BCD.
Should those be discouraged as well?

Easy there. I don't believe that BP&Ws should be discouraged. I'm just saying that, as of 2017, there are lots of instructors who won't teach new OW students in a BP&W.

Are you saying there are instructors teaching diving that only know how to use a jacket?

There are some, yes, but there's more to it than that. Some instructors, who prefer a BP&W for their own use, don't like to teach OW students in them, because some students can't get out and back in them in the water. Some instructors who are familiar with BP&Ws will teach in them with the caveat that the student may have to switch to a jacket BC if they can't master the in-water removal and replacement in a reasonable amount of time.

My daughter had no problem with any of the skills in her bpw including removing/replacing. In fact, she had it on/off faster than all the other people in her class using jackets. And there were 2-3 ft swells in the ocean that day (not a glass surfaced quarry). I don't even understand why this would be more or less challenging for any of the BCD types. I personally believe this skill has more to do with the "divers" ability as a swimmer/comfort in the water than the name of their BCD.

It does depend on the person. I took the 2nd half of my OW class in a BP&W and didn't have a problem either. I am not an instructor and do not know why some people have more trouble with it than others, but I believe that shoulder mobility and body shape play as much of a role as swimming ability and comfort in the water.

Just back from Cozumel and well more than 50% of the divers on my boats that had their own gear were using bpw as a bcd and half the DMs/instructors were diving bpw. Not a single person gave me a weird look about my bcd. Bpw were all over the place in Bonaire as well. I think bpw are far more common in rec use that you may realize and thus it should not be hard to find a non-jacket only instructor.

Again, not everyone who uses one likes to teach OW classes that way.
 
Some instructors, who prefer a BP&W for their own use, don't like to teach OW students in them, because some students can't get out and back in them in the water.

Er, there is little easier to get into or out of than a "Hog" rig.

1) Open the waist belt buckle, if the crotch strap is properly designed the waist belt will fall away and the buckle will slide through the loop in the crotch strap.

2) Reach over and grab the tank valve and pull the entire unit over your head. The unit ends up tank valve towards the diver plate up

To don:

1) Position the unit in front of the diver as above.

2) adjust harness straps and hoses as required

3) Slide arms under harness, and flip it over your head.

If done at the surface add sufficient gas to wing keep rig afloat, and the diver sort of slides under the rig, no lifting required.

Add a 7ft primary hose and a bit of planning is required to avoid getting tangled, but it's not hard to master.

Picture the "Studs" that like to flip their bc over their heads in the parking lot, only in the water the gear is weightless. :wink:

Tobin
 
Would love to see a video of this "flipping" method of donning and doffing a BP/W.
 
Would love to see a video of this "flipping" method of donning and doffing a BP/W.

No video handy, but simply imagine you've opened the waist belt, dropped the crotch strap and grab the tank valve. In the water the diver just kinda slides under the rig.


It's easier to don and doff a BP&W in the water than on dry land.

Tobin
 
All good points. while i dive a Halcyon rig, I think i have an older dive right webb kit with buckles that I may set him up with.If the LDS cannot help me with a back plate for him I will give you a call Tobin. I appreciate your offer to help. I should know more after this weekend.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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