Bad Planning.... could kill you.

[boulderjohn]

we're talking about catastrophic failures though. a light going out or a siltout doesn't qualify
also, swimming out isn't that practical for a lot of dives. did you bring three times the deco gas for your swim out from 10000 feet etc.?
even at manatee that equates to a LOT of extra deco gas

I have never done a dive like that, but if I did, I would bring another scooter.

 

[PfcAJ]

Team diving does not work well in all conditions. In some big wide open cave it is great. Dive a true sidemount cave and a buddy is a liability. I don't care who they are. It is twice the mess. A buddy is great as long as they can provide assistance. If they can't provide assistance then they are a liability and the dive is better done solo. Relying on a buddy is a recipe for disaster. It is nice if they can help but to believe they will always be there to assist is asinine. I don't know if it is true or not but I have heard stories of things getting nasty on a WKPP dive and when the divers turned the great Trey was gone. They surfaced to find him putting away his gear. You hear all kinds of rumors but depending on anyone else is not what I would do. I have also been told that Bill Renniker wanted it mandatory that a cave instructor had to be proficient and comfortable as a solo diver but this was not done. Personally I agree with him.

I don't think I've written once that I rely on my buddy for anything at all....

And I'd take those 'stories' you've 'heard' with a grain of salt.

 

[Superlyte27]

When you have divers oblivious to the world to where they don't even notice a bright light missing, do you feel bad taking them into a cave? I'm going to make a guess that their conservation awareness likely isn't that great either, or maybe I'm wrong and they're hyper sensitive to conserving the cave and just don't care about buddies.

It's very rare that I take anyone cave diving. I'm not the baby sitter. Do I feel bad? No, I'm not their daddy. Does it piss me off that they are too oblivious to notice I'm gone? Yes, and that just goes back to poor instruction/awareness.

I tried the self policing thing. I beat that drum with fervor. I was mocked, ridiculed, lied about. Evidence was made to disappear. I was threatened to rescind statements, etc etc etc. Today, I don't care what you do. Kill yourself if you want. Keep planning poorly. But there are probably people who were trained improperly on gas management, scooter calculations, bailout calculations, etc. This thread may alleviate some of that bad or missing instruction.

---------- Post added April 28th, 2015 at 12:44 PM ----------

I do keep a small group of dive buddies (about 10 with any regularity), and I like it that way. But I have to ask, is buddy separation a common thing? In my group, its unheard of.

Accidental or Intentional?
We dive differently than you do. In 19 years, accidental 3 times maybe. In 19 years, intentional....(which I know you guys would never do) too many to count. But, I've haven't had an issue while solo'ing YET.

---------- Post added April 28th, 2015 at 12:45 PM ----------

we're talking about catastrophic failures though. a light going out or a siltout doesn't qualify
also, swimming out isn't that practical for a lot of dives. did you bring three times the deco gas for your swim out from 10000 feet etc.?
even at manatee that equates to a LOT of extra deco gas

On CCR, that's hardly any deco gas imo.

---------- Post added April 28th, 2015 at 12:47 PM ----------

Team diving does not work well in all conditions. In some big wide open cave it is great. Dive a true sidemount cave and a buddy is a liability. I don't care who they are. It is twice the mess. A buddy is great as long as they can provide assistance. If they can't provide assistance then they are a liability and the dive is better done solo. Relying on a buddy is a recipe for disaster. It is nice if they can help but to believe they will always be there to assist is asinine. I don't know if it is true or not but I have heard stories of things getting nasty on a WKPP dive and when the divers turned the great Trey was gone. They surfaced to find him putting away his gear. You hear all kinds of rumors but depending on anyone else is not what I would do. I have also been told that Bill Renniker wanted it mandatory that a cave instructor had to be proficient and comfortable as a solo diver but this was not done. Personally I agree with him.

He and a few others believed that if an instructor was not good enough to get himself to and from say, they Henkle, solo on their own then they weren't ready to teach others. I agree completely.

 

[PfcAJ]

I plan on my rebreather dying, my scooter breaking, my dive buddy not noticing and scootering away from me, and I have to swim myself out.

On CCR, that's hardly any deco gas imo.

How do you reconcile those two things?

 

[kensuf]

He and a few others believed that if an instructor was not good enough to get himself to and from say, they Henkle, solo on their own then they weren't ready to teach others. I agree completely.

Swimming?

Let's go, you and me buddy. I'd love to do that swim again!

 

[Superlyte27]

I'm not sure what your question is, but I'll try to answer what I think you're asking. The last time I dove manatee, I think my deco obligation was less than 30 minutes. I can easily do that in an Aluminum 40. So, when compared to a 4-6 hour dive at Indian, Sally, or Eagle's Nest where I'm taking multiple AL80's for deco (assuming the CCR will die), a single AL40 isn't much deco gas at all.

 

[PfcAJ]

My question is if you have to swim out from 10k on OC, do you have enough deco gas in that al40?

 

[descent]

... Fisical activity during deco helps to offgass better. The assumption is based on faster blood moovement from tissue to lungs.

Yes, maintain gentle, continuous activity as you hang. That's what I was taught at Coronado and Pearl Harbor. There are several Ask Dr. Deco threads that say something similar.

• Flexing muscles during deco (2003, three posts with medical mod reply)
• Movement during deco (2005, five posts, no official reply)


The most detailed reply was from Dr Powell himself, who had this to say in ...

• How to get the Bends (2005)

... 3. ACTIVITIES DURING DECOMPRESSION
[b.] Blood flow is important for the washout of dissolved gas following the dive. We modify the gas loads of the individuals with specific,graded (but mild) exercise (the oxygen consumption is measured). This greatly accelerates inert gas washout (in the altitude case, they are breathing oxygen by mask). The take-home lesson is maintain moderate physical activity post-dive, and don’t go to sleep following the dive.

 

[boulderjohn]

John, do you have any papers that support one argument or another?

We know that work on the bottom increases inert gas uptake, would the reverse (rest on deco) not reduce gas elimination? A very brief search of the Rubicon archives doesn't produce any relevant studies, but I could just be using the wrong key words.

Work on the bottom increases gas uptake and no work on deco reduces gas intake, but it is not because of breathing rate. It is because of increased blood flow while working and decreased blood flow while not working.

As I said, I have been through a lot of these threads, and from what I remember about the content of them is that you will not find a study on the issue because it is perceived to be basic gas physics and not worthy of study.

 

[boulderjohn]

I could have sworn deco for divers makes a reference to a study showing that light movement during decompression does speed things up.

Yes--and I do that light movement to increase the blood flow.