Basic skills in a hogarthian rig

[PeterB]

Cross posting from DIR forum. Apologies if that's not OK - not sure how much overlap in the two groups.

I'm a pretty new scuba diver. 29 logged dives, OW, OAW, Nitrox, Search and Recovery and Rescue diver cards. I have also not been diving frequently. Did all of the above in 4 months in Sydney, and have only logged 8 dives in last two years. Just before I left Manly I picked up a full hogarthian rig (Halcyon BP/W, regs with the long primary hose, etc). I'm still getting used to it, but I have a couple of questions about practicing basic skills in such a rig (I've read through most of the GUE materials and will be taking a fundies course hopefully this summer, just looking for some hints in the meantime!).

I took a scuba refresher last night just to get back into the water. The instructor knew about the kit, but had never taught on it. That raised a couple of things.

Firstly, I have dived with a snorkel before. When trying out of air drills I realized why that's probably not a good idea with a long hose as I lost a little time getting round the snorkel when passing my primary reg. Seems to me I should have snorkel for ocean dives, but keep it in a pocket while I'm underwater. Any rules around that? Do you wear the snorkel into the water, then stow it before you descend or do you just jump in with it stowed (or does it depend on level of chop, etc). Also when you come back up do you only rig it to your mask if you need it or do you almost always rig it on surfacing just in case you might need it? Alternatively, *does* anyone dive a long hose and keep a snorkel on underwater in open water dives? If so, any hints on keeping it out of the way when passing your primary reg to a buddy?

Secondly, we did a "remove/put on BCD" drill in the pool. I was fine, but *sloooow* as I had to remove weight belt, remove rig, put rig on, put weight belt on. Definitely took me longer to do that than with a BCD. Any hints on the right way to do such drills? Do people drill often on taking off and putting on BP/W under water? Any suggestions on getting better/quicker at it? I considered just putting the small amount of weight I needed for a 3mm wetsuit in a pool - maybe 2-4 lbs in my tank pockets, but when I dive a thicker suit in salt water (which is where I'm more likely to need the skill) I have a weight belt, and most dive boats like to see a little ditchable weight anyway.

Any input much appreciated. I love the setup I have and would never go back, but I feel like I've still got a ways to go to be a good diver. For example, I can't imagine being able to take off and put on the rig in a hover. What would people say are a decent set of skills to say "I'm pretty safe with this rig"? Any additional drills I could work on if I get some pool time or spare dive time (I'll be tagging along for my GF's OW dives in Thailand next week, so I'll probably have some time for drills . . .).

Any thoughts much appreciated!

 

[Jai Bar]

Hmmm...

I guess that there are many heated discussions about diving with a snorkel attached to mask (I think it is primarily a PADI thing).

Well, some of the "diving procedures" and drills that are practiced in "recreational scuba diving" do not apply or do not contribute anything to a diver with your rig, even if you are just doing "recreational dives".

About the snorkel, you can read gue's attitude (and probably in many other DIR, Hogarthian sites which speak about rigging the gear):

Snorkel

Snorkels are useful only while divers are at the surface; during a dive they are typically in the way and pose an entanglement threat. If snorkeling, divers should choose a snorkel with a good size tube that mounts comfortably and does not offer breathing resistance. Rather than choosing from the array of gimmicky snorkels common to the dive industry, divers should learn proper skin diving techniques.​

I don't think you should dive with a snorkel on the mask, and if you do take one- put it in your pocket. When needed, just put it under the mask's strap (don't bother with "rigging" it using the cheap plastic clips).

It sounds foolish to me to force a diver with hogarthian rig to use a snorkel and practice OOA with a snorkel.

Removing the gear underwater? What's this drill good for? I think it is a drill invented in the days when everybody used a weight belt, so removing the BCD wasn't actually impacting too much on one's buoyancy, in most cases.

Nowadays many divers have weight integrated BCDs, or in your case- a heavy BP so removing the BCD or BP is more difficult, and I don't see what exactly this drill contributes to you, other than perhaps giving you some confidence under water, and supposedly feeling better with you gear.

In some places they also do some "Buddha Hovering" drills during what you call a "refresher dive" and this one can also be quite difficult for a BP/W diver, who probably will try to stay most of his dives in trimmed horizontal position. Then the popular flutter kicking instead of frog kick and so on and so on. So not all things that work good for BCD configurations apply in the same manner for BP/W rigged divers... You won't be seeing many of these skills in your fundies class

If you are going to dive with your GF, she being on a BCD-based rig, I think you should practice together some basic skills (OOA, for example), so you are both used to the other's equipment and know how to react.

 

[PeterB]

Thanks for the great response! Funnily enough, we *did* do buddha hovering, but I didn't find that too hard as I have passable buoyancy control for a rec. diver (although I really want to get some more practice - guessing the fundies course should help!). I'll definitely do some OOA drills, although they're pretty easy - especially without a snorkel!

 

[TSandM]

There really is no situation where you would have an emergent need for a snorkel, so if you think you might want one, carrying it in a pocket should be perfectly fine.

Since the DIR system emphasizes team cohesion, the need to remove gear underwater is not viewed as likely. However, if you are having severe difficulty removing the gear, it is likely that your harness shoulder straps are too tight.

As far as, "I'm safe in this rig," I think you need to be able to control your buoyancy, manage your trim, share gas if required, and remove the rig in the water (but not UNDER the water). It is also good to be able to remove your ditchable weight.

BTW, I was interested in your comment that boats like to see ditchable weight. I dive with none in the tropics -- 5 lb SS backplate and 2 lbs on the cambands -- and no one has ever said a word about it.

 

[PeterB]

Thanks for the feedback! Makes sense with the snorkel not being an emergency - it's more a matter of if you're out of air in chop waiting for a pickup it'd be nice to have, but by just sliding it under the band it'd be easy to rig - even if you were tired or dealing with some kind of other emergency, so I'm very comfortable with that.

The main problem I had with taking rig on and off under water was the fact I needed to remove weight belt, remove rig, put rig on and then put weight belt on. It wasn't hard, I was just slower than the guys who simply unclipped a BCD and slid back into it. I also wasn't stressed doing it, just don't think I'd be able to do it in a hover just yet (and I fully accept that's all about my lack of good buoyance control - I'm still a newbie). Agree that it's probably not something that'll come up much outside of dive drills.

Getting in and out of the rig on top of the water was trivial.

Interesting re: ditchable weight. I've seen Dive Masters who swear that it's dangerous not to have any (it seems to be a common thread going back and forth). I'm comfortable without it, but given that I'm only 29 dives into my career, I'm happy to put on a weight belt with a small amount of weight if it makes a DM happy - the small trim issues don't concern me at my level and while a DM isn't always right and I wouldn't go with something that was unsafe with my rig, I'm not going to get into an argument with the DM unless I have a good solid reason to have one. Putting a small weight belt on is something I don't mind one way or the other.

It's also possible that I'm gonna get more push back from a DM as I *am* a new diver - albeit one with a rescue diver card. Once I get in the water, they always seem to be plenty happy, but on paper I'm a new and infrequent diver (compared to yourself, if not compared to most of the people on the boat), so I'm sure that's why this comes up.

 

[Dtaine]

Interesting re: ditchable weight. I've seen Dive Masters who swear that it's dangerous not to have any (it seems to be a common thread going back and forth). I'm comfortable without it, but given that I'm only 29 dives into my career, I'm happy to put on a weight belt with a small amount of weight if it makes a DM happy - the small trim issues don't concern me at my level and while a DM isn't always right and I wouldn't go with something that was unsafe with my rig, I'm not going to get into an argument with the DM unless I have a good solid reason to have one. Putting a small weight belt on is something I don't mind one way or the other.

It's also possible that I'm gonna get more push back from a DM as I *am* a new diver - albeit one with a rescue diver card. Once I get in the water, they always seem to be plenty happy, but on paper I'm a new and infrequent diver (compared to yourself, if not compared to most of the people on the boat), so I'm sure that's why this comes up.

Have you had a DM give you trouble about it before?

 

[azchipka]

Firstly, I have dived with a snorkel before. When trying out of air drills I realized why that's probably not a good idea with a long hose as I lost a little time getting round the snorkel when passing my primary reg. Seems to me I should have snorkel for ocean dives, but keep it in a pocket while I'm underwater. Any rules around that? Do you wear the snorkel into the water, then stow it before you descend or do you just jump in with it stowed (or does it depend on level of chop, etc). Also when you come back up do you only rig it to your mask if you need it or do you almost always rig it on surfacing just in case you might need it? Alternatively, *does* anyone dive a long hose and keep a snorkel on underwater in open water dives? If so, any hints on keeping it out of the way when passing your primary reg to a buddy?

When ever I am in my tech rig I never wear a snorkel. When I am in standard recreational gear I use a folding pocket snorkel. The only time it comes out of my pocket is when students are with me and that is because PADI says it has to. Dive how it works best for you. There is only one agency that I can think of that says you absolutely most dive with certain gear a certain way.

Secondly, we did a "remove/put on BCD" drill in the pool. I was fine, but *sloooow* as I had to remove weight belt, remove rig, put rig on, put weight belt on. Definitely took me longer to do that than with a BCD. Any hints on the right way to do such drills?

Practice is the best hint

Do people drill often on taking off and putting on BP/W under water? Any suggestions on getting better/quicker at it? I considered just putting the small amount of weight I needed for a 3mm wetsuit in a pool - maybe 2-4 lbs in my tank pockets, but when I dive a thicker suit in salt water (which is where I'm more likely to need the skill) I have a weight belt, and most dive boats like to see a little ditchable weight anyway.

If you need more weight you can swing to a steel backplate (assuming thats not what your using) if your still in need of additional weight then either use a weight bar that mounts between the wing and the tanks or the Halcyon weight pouches that attach to the harness. There is no safe way I can think of you can wear a halcyon harness and a standard recreational weight belt.

You may also want to look at the new Cinch system for the Halcyon harness it will make getting in and out of.

 

[TSandM]

There is no safe way I can think of you can wear a halcyon harness and a standard recreational weight belt.

I don't understand this comment. I use a Hog harness and wear a standard weight belt with no problems. What do you see as incompatible?

 

[Steve SDI/TDI HQ]

Makes sense with the snorkel not being an emergency - it's more a matter of if you're out of air in chop waiting for a pickup ...

If you are moving away from standard sport diving kit and habits, there is absolutely no requirement for a snorkel. In the circumstance you cite above, the sensible thing to do is to keep the regulator in your mouth. ESPECIALLY in a chop. Given that you now follow the gas management guidelines that fit into the technical diver's best practice, you have approximately one third of your starting pressure of gas on your back. Keep the snorkel for RSTC sanctioned dives and for free diving.

Since this forum is titled Hogarthian Diving, it might be worth while to take another look at the basic tenets of the system.

Streamlined, Suitable, Simple, Serviced, Standard, Shared.

On three counts, snorkels don't make it.

 

[kanonfodr]

Interesting re: ditchable weight. I've seen Dive Masters who swear that it's dangerous not to have any (it seems to be a common thread going back and forth). I'm comfortable without it, but given that I'm only 29 dives into my career, I'm happy to put on a weight belt with a small amount of weight if it makes a DM happy - the small trim issues don't concern me at my level and while a DM isn't always right and I wouldn't go with something that was unsafe with my rig, I'm not going to get into an argument with the DM unless I have a good solid reason to have one. Putting a small weight belt on is something I don't mind one way or the other.

Just keep in mind that you are diving YOUR rig, if you don't need ditchable weight then don't carry it. If a DM insists, explain to them why you don't need it. When I dove a rec BCD I carried 12 pounds ditchable, using AL80 tanks and a 3mil wetsuit.

By eliminating the rec BCD (4 pounds +), switching to the backplate (5 pounds -) and then steel tanks (4 pounds more negative than AL80s at the end of the dive) I use I'm actually overweighted by about a pound compared to a rec setup, but I find that acceptable.

Yes, I've had to explain my rig to boat crews before out here in the land of poodle jackets and Air2s. Especially when I found my SPG clipped to the crotch strap, my long hose clipped to the left d-ring, and my bungieed secondary wrapped around my shears pocket. And then they had 12 pounds of lead in my seat for me to use. Oh well, nobody's perfect.

But yeah, dive YOUR rig YOUR way, don't worry about what some DM wants to say and instead let your skills speak for you.

Peace,
Greg