Best travel fins?

[Akimbo]

That's right. The best travel fins are the ones you use…

That depends. Cold water divers often can’t use the same fin with their drysuit that works on a 3mm boot or sock in warm water.

I have used Jet Fins for over 40 years and keep gravitating back to them. However, virtually all of my diving has been in cold water. Jets started hurting the underside of my forward of the heel with thin boots.

I ended up switching to an Aqualung fin which covers my heel, like my long fins for freediving. Unfortunately my feet are too wide to fit in all the full-foot-pocket fins.

 

[danvolker]

There's something that's been nagging me as I read this thread. Folks have talked about fin stiffness and length, but nobody has really discussed drag.

buddhasummer's earlier post suggests she has size 6ish feet. She probably presents a lot less drag underwater than I do. I'm 5'11" and about 185 lbs. So a fin that feels stiff to a small and streamlined diver might fold much too easily for a larger diver or one using a full tech rig. Also, bigger folks tends to have stronger legs, which will generally make fins feel more flexible. It would be useful if everyone posted their height and weight along with their fin preferences.

I have used FFs and thought they were incredibly fun. But, to me they offer a lot of quick acceleration without the ability to sustain a high rate of speed. If I wanted to cruise along for a long time I would stick with my SeaQuest Thrusters. I should also point out that I didn't much care for the Thrusters when I first got them, but learned how to kick effectively with them and now I would say they are a decent, but not great fin. They are also too large to fit in a carry-on bag, which is why I'm reading this thread.

I have also tried a set of Twin Jets. I hated them. I mostly frog kick and I've heard split fins are bad for that.

This is in fact, a critical component of this discussion....much like length of snow skiis used to be the way to deal with the weight and power of ski racers....a light skiier may have been using 195's. ... a 210 pound strong skier more likely in a 205 to 212....

This is one reason that the better freedive fin companies have 3 to 5 stiffnesses in the models they sell. As I am over 200lbs, and legs are strong from being a competitive cyclist and weight lifter for many decades, I find the stiff models of most freedive fins to feel quite "soft" for me, while many divers would have the same perception of "soft" only with the models created as softest...

Noteworthy in this discussion is that of all the models of scuba fins being discussed here, only Force Fins used this "intel" in deciding to make models for each strength and drag potential of every kind of diver there is...the Original Force fins, which I never liked, are aimed at the diver that wants soft fins, no work ever, and this fin delivers--but, if emergency speed is needed, these Original Force fins do not just "Give up" and spaghetti like 95% of scuba fins do when you begin to push them beyond the "normal" power output of a diver.....they just keep generating more speed, with more power being applied, and the blades do not lose their efficiency from deforming as would gorrillas, and slingshots,. quattros and the bulk of the rest.....And, Force fin has many stiffer and larger blade size models, aimed at different base power outputs of the diver, and different drag levels that a diver may need to deal with....One of the most extreme examples, the Excellerating Force Fin, was aimed at Technical divers....with the huge drag of doubles, stages, nasty dry suits( stupid high drag), and pushing big cameras. It has far more size than the Original FF blades, but is still a fraction of the size of Freedive fins.....and when you want to go slow, or precise with the Excellerating Force fin, it is amazing at the complete lack of work involved, and the absolute precision....BUT, if a situation presents itself that requires the tech diver, or advanced diver, to suddenly ramp up to full speed--whether an emergency situation, a photo opportunity up current, whatever, these fins channel water in a way like no other fin, and it creates an effect like suddenly making these fins 2 feet longer--and you are getting the speed and drive of big DiveR freedive fins.... You have to experience this to believe it....Seriously, I know how this sounds...but if you try this...demo them, you will see that it is unlike anything else out there.

Post Script...... I ran into Bob Evans at the DEMA Show yesterday in Orlando.....Chatted with him and his wife Suzanne , and am happy to be able to pass on the direction of Force Fin is now one of ramping up new factory production, as he was able to get his material re-sourced, and he WILL be making the Excellerating Force Fin again....Soon!!!!

Meanwhile.....my dog in this fight......I don't sell fins...I am not a shop.....I an involved in pushing out the story of Palm Beach diving for the world, and the Hotels ( not the dive industry) pays me a "small" amount for this. It is not even a financial incentive amount....My income and lifestyle does not derive from the Dive Industry. The dive world is a passion....Photography and u/w video is a passion.....and as long as any of you have been chatting with me on the internet ( since rec.scuba in the early 90's), I have been "Ranting" about fins. I hate the way the Dive Industry LIES about fins, I hate the way the most instructors don't teach new divers proper kick strokes and techniques, and how little emphasis is placed on propulsion---which to me is equally as important as is Buoyancy. So this is why you are always going to see me jump in to a thread on Fins....And it is also why I have way over a dozen fins I can loan out to any visiting divers from SB that wants to try Dive R freediveing fins, Cressi Freediving fins, Omer Freediving fins, Mustang C4 freediving fins, Hollis F1's., SP Jet fins, and Excellerating Force fins ( and a few other FF models). It's like a quest for the ideal fin, and the desire to get this news out and share it....And...I have an abiding hatred for what I think are the BAD fin companies -- and for the print magazines that propagate the paid lies/bogus Reviews of bad fins, leading divers to think they are good, or even "Best"

 

[Nemrod]

There's something that's been nagging me as I read this thread. Folks have talked about fin stiffness and length, but nobody has really discussed drag.

I think discussing the drag profile, flat plate frontal area equivalent, of a SCUBA diver is akin to Jeep people discussing aerodynamics of the Jeep Wrangler. SCUBA divers and Jeep Wranglers will never be anything but a brick or worse, a whiffle ball. So it goes from totally horrid to completely horrid. Drag reduction for SCUBA divers is not a complete waste of effort, a snipe hunt, but huge improvements are not to be found without a complete rethink of SCUBA kit.

Aircraft propellers, since the Wright Bros. have evolved until they operate in the range of 90% efficiency. To get even an incremental increase in efficiency is extremely challenging to engineers. Like taking half the distance with each step of the preceding step to some fixed object, you will never get there. I just am of the mind that fins are similar. Despite the hugely varied appearance, most operate within probably a few percentage points of the same efficiency of converting muscle power/ calories expended into thrust. Thrust, be it a propeller, a wing, a jet or rocket engine, a law of physics, for every reaction there is an equal but opposite reaction. The fins displace a volume/mass of water and the diver is accelerated in the opposite direction as a result. Unfortunately, the human engine is severely limited. Many divers would gain a greater increase in speed or reduced (apparent) effort for a given speed if they simply increased their fitness level.

I have over the years, as a lap swimmer, occasionally, on dreary winter days, taken a pile O' fins to the pool and swam them for time over distance. Without the ability to use a power meter as I do on my bicycle, I have to make an effort to maintain a similar effort/output. Since I am a distance athlete of sorts, that is not as hard as it might sound to move my heart rate into the zone and keep it there.

Jets, FF Pros, Mares Quattros, UDT Duck Feet can all make good speed with surprisingly little difference in time for distance for a similar effort. I find it useful to evaluate fins more in terms of maneuverability (backing up, sudden stops, turns) and versatility (ability to do different kicks). Here, sorry, but my opinion, Jets (and similar paddle fins) win and floppy fins (especially those that fold on the up kick or back kick) lose. Guess which one that is.

Why do I have a pile O' fins, well, because each has a place in my arsenal and a use for which sometimes they are the choice of weapon for the day.

N

 

[danvolker]

I think discussing the drag profile, flat plate frontal area equivalent, of a SCUBA diver is akin to Jeep people discussing aerodynamics of the Jeep Wrangler. SCUBA divers and Jeep Wranglers will never be anything but a brick or worse, a whiffle ball. So it goes from totally horrid to completely horrid. Drag reduction for SCUBA divers is not a complete waste of effort, a snipe hunt, but huge improvements are not to be found without a complete rethink of SCUBA kit.

Aircraft propellers, since the Wright Bros. have evolved until they operate in the range of 90% efficiency. To get even an incremental increase in efficiency is extremely challenging to engineers. Like taking half the distance with each step of the preceding step to some fixed object, you will never get there. I just am of the mind that fins are similar. Despite the hugely varied appearance, most operate within probably a few percentage points of the same efficiency of converting muscle power/ calories expended into thrust. Thrust, be it a propeller, a wing, a jet or rocket engine, a law of physics, for every reaction there is an equal but opposite reaction. The fins displace a volume/mass of water and the diver is accelerated in the opposite direction as a result. Unfortunately, the human engine is severely limited. Many divers would gain a greater increase in speed or reduced (apparent) effort for a given speed if they simply increased their fitness level.

I have over the years, as a lap swimmer, occasionally, on dreary winter days, taken a pile O' fins to the pool and swam them for time over distance. Without the ability to use a power meter as I do on my bicycle, I have to make an effort to maintain a similar effort/output. Since I am a distance athlete of sorts, that is not as hard as it might sound to move my heart rate into the zone and keep it there.

Jets, FF Pros, Mares Quattros, UDT Duck Feet can all make good speed with surprisingly little difference in time for distance for a similar effort. I find it useful to evaluate fins more in terms of maneuverability (backing up, sudden stops, turns) and versatility (ability to do different kicks). Here, sorry, but my opinion, Jets (and similar paddle fins) win and floppy fins (especially those that fold on the up kick or back kick) lose. Guess which one that is.

Why do I have a pile O' fins, well, because each has a place in my arsenal and a use for which sometimes they are the choice of weapon for the day.

N

Nemrod, while much of what you say is true, there is no denying the actual differences different gear configurations will cause, and that the effects will have real consequences on a dive.....
An example of what I am suggesting---you and 3 of your buddies you lap swim with are all geared up in slick skin wetsuits, with slick 19 pound wings and bp and harness with optimal streamlining..Each is using an Al 80...no one carrying any cameras...If you cruise a good pace down the reef for an hour, all of you swim comfortably at about the same speed, all get to 1000 psi at about the same time.....then try the same scenario, but you wear a big puffy BC ---you will work harder than your friends and your air consumption will be higher, and you will get to 1000 psi first.

In another scenario, you wear double tanks----you will work much harder to keep up, though you have a lot more air, so you have bigger reserves on surfacing, but if you need to use the same double set up for the 2nd dive, now you are hosed, because you worked harder then the buddies did, and you went beyond the half way point in air use.

Or....you wear a DUI TLS 350 Drysuit, the buddies wear the slick freediving style wet suits...not only do you work hard, if they pick up pace for anything, you are left behind and they have to keep stopping for you....

 

[Nemrod]

Nemrod, while much of what you say is true, there is no denying the actual differences different gear configurations will cause, and that the effects will have real consequences on a dive.....
An example of what I am suggesting---you and 3 of your buddies you lap swim with are all geared up in slick skin wetsuits, with slick 19 pound wings and bp and harness with optimal streamlining..Each is using an Al 80...no one carrying any cameras...If you cruise a good pace down the reef for an hour, all of you swim comfortably at about the same speed, all get to 1000 psi at about the same time.....then try the same scenario, but you wear a big puffy BC ---you will work harder than your friends and your air consumption will be higher, and you will get to 1000 psi first.

In another scenario, you wear double tanks----you will work much harder to keep up, though you have a lot more air, so you have bigger reserves on surfacing, but if you need to use the same double set up for the 2nd dive, now you are hosed, because you worked harder then the buddies did, and you went beyond the half way point in air use.

Or....you wear a DUI TLS 350 Drysuit, the buddies wear the slick freediving style wet suits...not only do you work hard, if they pick up pace for anything, you are left behind and they have to keep stopping for you....

I have done exactly what you suggest. Timed myself over distance in the pool in different types of gear. I have never done a drysuit but I have used drysuits many times. Much of the increased effort is the suit resisting (body/muscle) movement. You are talking tenths of a MPH and I am talking doubling speed. Yes, doubles, "puffy" BCs (why are they puffy?) and bag suits do increase drag. I specifically stated that seeking drag reduction was not a snipe hunt but it was still at best horrid, vs horrid. SCUBA divers are not clean machines. Anecdotal statements, logical as they may seem, often do not prove true when they are tested. I will stay with what I said.


You bring up another interesting thing, the texture of suits. My last surviving G231 sharkskin suit will never be used in chlorine . However, again, over the years I have swam suits of different materials including in long distance swimming races and triathlons. It is not so simple.

The greatest limitation to the speed (and significant increases thereof) of a SCUBA diver is the human engine. That includes the texture of the suit.

Drag reduction is not a driving force in SCUBA gear design. If it was we would see faired tanks with integrated components and buoyancy control, reduced hoses etc. Why, because safety, portability, comfort and the all important consumer styling and expectation as to what something should look like trump innovative design. And as well, is speed necessarily practical or worth the other negatives?

A clean(er) configuration would be a small horse collar BC, a single hose routed next to the body, a mini free diving type mask, J valve. An even cleaner configuration is no BC. However, speed must not be that important or the driving factor in the evolution of SCUBA gear, so what is?

I belt mounted once, twin 30s, years ago, kind of like side mounting but tucked in to loops on my weight belt. The T2100 regulator was routed under my harness along the chest. BC, spg, huh? Faster, yes, twice as fast, no.

N

 

[danvolker]

I have done exactly what you suggest. Timed myself over distance in the pool in different types of gear. I have never done a drysuit but I have used drysuits many times. Much of the increased effort is the suit resisting (body/muscle) movement. You are talking tenths of a MPH and I am talking doubling speed. Yes, doubles, "puffy" BCs (why are they puffy?) and bag suits do increase drag. I specifically stated that seeking drag reduction was not a snipe hunt but it was still at best horrid, vs horrid. SCUBA divers are not clean machines. Anecdotal statements, logical as they may seem, often do not prove true when they are tested. I will stay with what I said.


You bring up another interesting thing, the texture of suits. My last surviving G231 sharkskin suit will never be used in chlorine . However, again, over the years I have swam suits of different materials including in long distance swimming races and triathlons. It is not so simple.

The greatest limitation to the speed (and significant increases thereof) of a SCUBA diver is the human engine. That includes the texture of the suit.

N

Nemrod..as you are a swimmer, this is kind of surprising, as I would expect high fitness compared to most scuba divers.... What I can say, from many thousands of dives with large groups and with buddy teams, is that the speed differences with the gear in the examples I used, were dramatic enough to cause a person either to change gear, or, to no longer be part of certain buddy teams--or to no longer dive with certain groups. This is not anecdotal at the sample size I am referring to.

Clearly the drag issue is tiny at slow cruising speeds, and the drag forces begin to explode as the divers begin what you might describe as a Spearfishing Cruising pace....which let's say is about double the pace of most scuba divers on a sight seeing tour....and...here in S fl, many spearfishers are using Freedive fins, which allows easy access to these double speeds, without effort....and again, this speed will cause large drag issues like a floppy BC or double tanks, to be greatly magnified over the drag effect at a slow cruise behind a tour guide.....And if you are swimming with photographers....the constant stopping and high drag of their camera--slowing their speed, will mean that the pace you keep with them is far below a pace where you will experience much drag you would find gear sensitive.


Personally, it drives me crazy to dive with slow divers. I wont buddy with them. Since my wife is a photographer, it can be annoying to be hung up in one area I don't want to be in, and having to poke or go no-where, when I can see the Oasis want to spend time in just 100 feet away.....I want to pick up the pace....but I am not "allowed" to *&^%!!! So in certain dives I am forced to find a good buddy to have dive with her, so I can go at the pace I want to with one of my buddies that is a bicyclist, meaning they swim twice as fast as a normal diver and feel like they are poking...Then I get to shoot the video subjects I am on the dive for...

So you see where you want to go to--where you want to be hovering and still, and you just GET THERE quickly.....no wasting time in an area you don't care about...and this goes to low drag gear, freedive fins or excellerating Force fins, and slick wetsuit.....If my TLS 350 drysuit had not cost so much, I would burn the piece of Sh*t for all the drag it represents. On a tech dive, you don't swim fast anyway, so it is less of an issue then---and a wetsuit is not a smart option at 280 feet where it would be compressed to paper thickness, and of no thermal value.

Maybe you and I won't agree on this, but this is something easily reproduced every day of the week, on any of the charter boats in Palm Beach. Any suggestion that good science does not require good observation, pretty much guarantees it is not good science

 

[Bob Evans]

....floppy fins (especially those that fold on the up kick or back kick)....

N

Whoa... do you work for the NSA, listening into my phone conversations with Dan Volker.... Or, were you standing nearby when Dan, Jim Abernathy and I were talking about the Jiggly Wiggly Force Fins at DEMA r(tradeshow in Orlando last week)? Jiggly Wigglys are super flexible, and formulated with a very high rebound. They are designed to activate - bend very easily - on the forward motion. Ideal for divers with very limited or even no leg strength (parapalegic). Already tested and recommended by Fraser Bathgate, who runs the Handicapped Scuba Divers programs with PADI. Many a kick impaired individual can undulate a blade in the forward motion, the design and special formulation of the Jiggly Wiggly Force Fin, rebounds, and when cupped into itself, the way all Force Fins do, throws water and channels behind to propel the diver. It allows a diver with limited or no kick strength to move like the strongest kicking divers. Most importantly, this rebound action, recovers the kick impaired diver profile to the prone position, ready for the next undulation.... Not actively marketed, and made only by special request by Force Fin. At DEMA, we were discussing getting a pair down to Jim Abernathy to use in his programs. Keep listening in, I'm sure Dan will post their results.

 

[alwayssummer]

Hey Dan Volker and Bob Evans, early on in this thread a few people mentioned FF Hockey fins, but looking on the FF website I don't see them. Have they been replaced by a new model? Also, do you find that a lot of frog kickers use FFs?

---------- Post added November 10th, 2013 at 01:24 PM ----------

Drag reduction for SCUBA divers is not a complete waste of effort, a snipe hunt, but huge improvements are not to be found without a complete rethink of SCUBA kit.

I didn't mean that a diver should focus on drag reduction, but rather, that drag profile and leg strength will be key factors in choosing the right fin, so when a small person with rec gear says "Fin A works great for me and I have no issues with stiffness," that doesn't mean that it's going to be good for me when I'm wearing doubles.

 

[danvolker]

Hey Dan Volker and Bob Evans, early on in this thread a few people mentioned FF Hockey fins, but looking on the FF website I don't see them. Have they been replaced by a new model? Also, do you find that a lot of frog kickers use FFs?

---------- Post added November 10th, 2013 at 01:24 PM ----------

At some point, Bob may answer this.....from chatting with him at DEMA, I expect many of the models that became scarce in the past year, to go back into production...
The Hockey FF does frog kick, and reverse kick, but it does not offer the control surface of the Excellerating Force Fin....this is a big deal in an Exploration grade penetration, where you may have to hover motionless......without alot of kicking all over the place to hold yourself in position.....this is something you learn and practice in GUE Fundies.....The Hockey fin was meant to accelerate like crazy, and be great for U/W Hockey....it is also good for many types of dives, but the Excellerating Force Fin was aimed at Tech divers and their needs--and it is the Fin I think you should try a DEMO of.

The Excellerators will Frog kick beautifully, with what will probably be the best frog kicking experirence you will have with any fin....and they reverse kick much better than SP Jets.

Now before we hear from the guy that is annoyed that I post about freediving fins and Force fins again....I need to share something for perspective...
Back in the 90's, in the days when Rec.Scuba was huge and actually several times the size of SB.....Back then I saw some Force Fin divers on dives, and saw some ads for them, and I decided I hated the idea of them--that they were antithetical to what I thought fins should be for a diver.....So back around 1995 or 96, I started the "Force Fin Challenge"....I pushed a big thread with this, seen by well over 100,000 divers, that ANYONE that would come to Palm Beach and buddy with JIm Abernethy and me on a spearfishing pace cruising dive( we'd be spearfishing)---if they had Force Fins on and could just stay with us on an hour long dive, then I would get them a comp week at a Singer Island Hotel, and JIm would give them a comp boat trip for a week.....The thread got a lot of attention...a few tried, but it was not really fair.... The only fin in the game then was the classic original FF, and it was aimed at the masses that wanted to get around without working, and they did nothing close to our Freedive fin spearfishing pace.....If we did this today, with the existence of the excelerating Force Fins, I would be getting someone a Hotel for a week, and I would have cost Jimmy a week's dive trip....this was a big difference in "gearing"....Bob Evans made many models of fins, with many specific types of dive mission in mind....some were little gears ( like what your ride a bike up a steep hill with), and some were Big Gears( what you go fast on the flats with, or with the wind behind you).


So the Force Fin Challenge was a nasty thorn in the side of Bob Evans....I think they had a Dart Board in their coffee room with my face on it....Along comes a DEMA Show --maybe it was 97 ?? I am wandering around the biggest and coolest Toy store in the world for divers, and these 4 guys come running up, one gets beside me and puts his arm around my shoulder like we were friends, and one of the other guys shoots a photo....which they would then publish on rec.scuba---> as Bob Evans with his good Friend Dan Volker...... I was so shocked, initially I did not even know what to do or say.....I wasn't sure if I was mad or if it was funny...then I decided it was very funny, and Bob started talking like a machine gun....he can really go and he was a huge character --absolutely larger than life.....So I decided I liked this guy, and I would give him the respect to listen to his story on fin design and technologies....and then I would try the fins he wanted me to try...to see for myself...He knew I would not like the Original Force fin, but he had several other models just coming out now, that he felt I would like much more, and some on the Drawing board he was convinced I would like more than Freediving fins, when they finally went into production.

For the next several years I did not slam FF any more, as I understood they were aimed at the people that really wanted this "gearing".....I did not start saying really good things on a regular basis, until I tried the Hockey Fin, and then the Excellerating Force Fin---which I like so much that I sometimes do use it over Freedive fins..and not just penetrating wrecks where you would expect the Excellerators to be far superior to Freedive fins..I sometimes use them now even on big long reef cruising dives....But I still use the Big DiveR's on many dives as well. It depends on what I want to do..on the "mission"

I have several pairs of Jet fins I would not use for anything--they are old technology, and poor performing flutter kick fins---good only for frogkick and reverse and helicopter--and motionless hover....but very defective in medium to fast flutter kicking, which to me is a big defect--you never know when you might need to go fast.

Anyway, I began as an enemy of the Force Fin, I ended up learning the truth, and when I find out that I am wrong about something, I have no problem admitting it.
Since I still have a passion for getting people to understand how important fins really are, I am always going to be doing these rants on fins. IN the 90's I was the one pushing the long hose primary and DIR. I pushed my ideas on fins also, but not so tirelessly as I did DIR. Now, I am pretty much just banging the drum about propulsion and fins...Today there are thousands of DIR's and GUE's and DIR-ish divers to post about the long hose and DIR ideas. And today, it is mostly just me that really cares about what fins divers choose.....So I actually DO see myself starting a Force fin Challenge again, only when we run this one, it will be showing divers how superior a specific model of FF is for them--over whatever fin they were using before.....I am thinking now about what kind of contest this should be, and what kind of prizes. If anyone has suggestions, let me here them

 

[Bob Evans]

Thanks Dan, That sums it up, except for the cement I was mixing for your final dive...just joking... I did find a file with a target bull's eye on it with your name in red. Funny how time changes and now we can help Jim with his work with our Vet's. The Veterans Parade just marched by our Santa Barbara store. After walking the DEMA show with my Partner, Susanne, its clear Force Fin has a future in pushing forward with our line. I saw nothing new in fin designs. 90% China made products, leave the door open for our American Made Force Fins. The Hockey fin I made for my friend Josh will resurface first part of next year. Plan on watching how an American Fin Designer will keep us all kicking. That is what we fight for. the American Way.