Best valve and regulator for emergency O2

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tmassey

Contributor
Messages
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Location
Shelby Township, MI USA
# of dives
500 - 999
Hello!

I have recently acquired a medical O2 tank as part of a larger purchase that I would like to use for emergency O2. Depending on cost and other factors, I may need to use parts from the valve for the fill station, so I have a bit of a clean slate. I just realized I’ve never ever looked at the details of an emergency O2 setup. It’s been little more than a black (OK, green) box to me. What is the best configuration for emergency O2?

The bottle I have is a Catalina MD: 3l water/425l O2 with a 3/4-16 UNF thread. (Ref: Medical | High Pressure Aluminum Gas Cylinders | Composite Cylinders ). It has a CGA 870 post valve that I may need to steal a QD fitting from, so replacing the valve might make sense.

First things first: what do I want for the user to wear? My initial thinking is maximum O2 concentration and maximum gas duration. To me, that seems to mean demand valve and mask, but others say this is not necessary or to even avoid this. Once that’s decided, what type of regulator does this need? And then, of course, what type of valve does that lead to?

I’m filling this myself, and I have no other CGA 870 equipment, and given its pricey medical usage I’d just as soon avoid it. CGA 540 would be better, but DIN would be wonderful..... :)

The other choice is to scavenge my parts, scrap the tank and simply use an AL80. Easy to fill, huge capacity, and I have lots of regulators for it, but I’d still have to figure out how to deliver this to the user. And the size and weight of the MD tank is very appealing: emergency O2 only gets used if you have it with you...

Anyway, I would appreciate your thoughts. Assuming you had a MD with or without valve and an AL80 and you were filling yourself, how would you set up an emergency bottle?
 
I would not fill it myself first off as any normal compressor will not be clean enough for medical grade O2. That being said any O2 is better than none in an emergency. For your medical bottle no standard yoke or dinner reg will work as they are only designed to be used with an O2 regulator that allows you to control lpm to either a canula, nrb, or bvm. Use a medical O2 reg with at least a 15 lpm flow rate valve and a nrb is your best bet. An unconscious person can be placed on high flow O2 via nrb. Any demand regulator will cause problems with an ams issue. Be safe, be smart, do it right, and as if it needs saying DO NOT USE O2 AT DEPTH.
 
I think that a RescuEAN with an AL80 might be the easiest thing for emergency treatment using a constant flow mask.

@tbone1004 has one and it's very high quality and makes me feel much better knowing we've got it with us on our trips.
 
@tmassey just get a RescuEAN that @victorzamora linked and use it on a standard deco bottle. Put a BC inflator on your deco regs and be done with it. If the patient is conscious, just give them the second stage, or if lower fO2 is required a nasal canula, non-rebreather mask, etc. If the patient is unconscious, then use a bag valve mask for rescue breathing.

Tiny little bottles don't do so well for 100% O2 use so keeping them around is largely pointless. The small bottles that came with my Homefill are great to take to races, sports events, etc. but for diving they stay in the garage
 
I would not fill it myself first off as any normal compressor will not be clean enough for medical grade O2.

There are lots of ways of filling an O2 bottle that doesn't involve a "normal compressor": Transfill from large O2 bottle, oilless compressor, dedicated O2 compressor, booster, etc. That is outside the context of this thread.

Tiny little bottles don't do so well for 100% O2 use so keeping them around is largely pointless. The small bottles that came with my Homefill are great to take to races, sports events, etc. but for diving they stay in the garage

Interesting: I didn't think of the D bottle as "tiny". It's twice the size as the DAN Rescue Pak, and 2/3 the size of the Ext. Care Plus. It's also the same as an AL40 at 1100 PSI. At 12l/min (suggested in the DAN Rescue Pak), that's half an hour of care. Sure, an AL80 is a monster compared to any medical O2 bottle, but it's also a monster to drag around.

For my purposes, this not something that I'm expecting to be required to be depend on, like being permanently installed in a commercial boat, for example. It's more about self-reliance: I'd rather be responsible for my own protection, rather than depending on what is on a boat or at the beach...

What capacity would you consider to be the smallest worth dragging around? If the answer is none, not because of capacity but because you'd simply use the O2 bottle you already *need* to drag around, that makes 100% perfect sense -- but it's not the argument you made! :) But it's a good argument. If that truly is the case, I'll simply scavenge the valve and scrap the med bottle.

I think that a RescuEAN with an AL80 might be the easiest thing for emergency treatment using a constant flow mask.

The RescuEAN certainly seems ideal for use if you're going to use a SCUBA tank. Even if I don't put an inflator hose on my deco reg, moving my primary reg over isn't exactly a hardship... I think one of those will get added to my list no matter *what* I do with the medical O2 bottle... (In which case, what do I need the med bottle for?)

One issue is that I use an AL40 of O2 for deco: I have an AL80, but it has EAN50. I'd rather not drag around an AL80 for O2 deco: as a wreck diver, we don't drop our bottles, and I'd rather not drag an AL80 around a wreck if I don't have to. But that's not that big an issue: if there's 1100 PSI left, it's the same as the med bottle.

One other question: it uses a standard inflator hose connection. I know that lots of Air2-style regs require the use of special hoses 'because a standard QD connector doesn't supply enough gas'. Why does this not present a problem for the RescuEAN?


Even at roughly $120, the RescuEAN makes a lot of sense, and if I'm gong to drag around a bottle, it's nice for it to be able to play double-duty. So, does anyone have a reason why I should mess with the med bottle at all?


Either way, let's assume I've got *some* bottle capable of supplying O2. What is the best method for dispensing this oxygen? @victorzamora has mentioned a constant flow mask. I've seen all kinds of options: the DAN kit and the RescueEAN kits include several.

I guess it comes down to doing more research in O2 treatment. More searching for me... but if anyone has any resources I should be looking at, I'd appreciate it.
 
@tmassey
so I have 3 different "options" that I use.

Option 1 is the most frequent and what I take with me normally on dive trips, AL40, AL80 with O2, usually what @victorzamora has dubbed "argox" out of my concentrator. Now that I have a Haskel they are pumped up to 2600-3000 depending, but prior to that were 2000-2200 out of my Homefill. Those are brought around anyway for decompression and in-water recompression use, and taking a small pelican with the RescuEAN, BVM, non-rebreather, etc. is super easy. I need to get a couple canulas actually now that I'm thinking about it.

Option 2 is everything above, plus an MTV-100 and a Medical E bottle. E bottles are the tall skinny ones and about 4.9l. For reference an AL40 is 5.7l and an AL80 is 11.1. The Medical E bottle has a Walk-O2-Bout regulator on it which gives me constant flow, DISS port, and a standard CGA port for filling. I take this when teaching since the MTV-100 is a lot easier to use with an unconscious victim, and even with conscious victims it allows them to breathe thru their nose via demand valve. MTV-100's are VERY expensive, but are much easier than using a bag valve mask. Does it buy anything over the RescuEAN? Convenience is really the only thing. If you do not invest in the MTV-100, there is no reason to bother with a medical bottle.

Option 3 is some M9/C/1.9L bottles that came with the homefill. Those are non-diving use only and usually only come out to volleyball tournaments with my wife.

Boat should always have big oxygen, the RescuEAN on a boat means that you can tap into anyones O2, 50%, nitrox, whatever bottles if/when the boat bottles run out.

On the QD. BC inflators flow more than enough gas for breathing at the surface. It's at depth that is the issue. The RescuEAN can flow up to ~.9cfm which is quite high for anyone not suffering hypercapnia or working.

Best way to deliver gas. If the patient is conscious and breathing, a second stage is ideal, however they are heavy and uncomfortable for prolonged use. Non-rebreather masks with reservoir are ideal for maximum fO2 delivery. Remember that traditional medical oxygen delivery is trying to overcome low oxygen saturation, which you are only going to be dealing with if a victim comes up unconscious. In typical diving emergencies, particularly DCS, you are trying to create a maximum gradient across the tissues to push the inert gas back out. Non-rebreather mask with reservoir is the best chance outside of a demand valve to deliver 100% O2 to the patient.
 
@tbone1004 I want to be you when I grow up. Thanks for the info.

I’m not buying a MTV-100.I’ll ignore the med bottle. Right on about the QD’s: forgot about gas density at depth. Argox. Love it. 7/93 Argox. :)

Second stage (and a clothespin!) are an option — I’ve seen it done — but I was assuming (hoping?) there would be better options. I will research what you’ve described: it certainly gives me a solid starting point. I think that a small kit to be used with standard SCUBA tanks and equipment will be more straightforward. I will sacrifice the valve and move on.

Thank you very much!
 
@tbone1004Second stage (and a clothespin!) are an option — I’ve seen it done — but I was assuming (hoping?) there would be better options. I will research what you’ve described: it certainly gives me a solid starting point. I think that a small kit to be used with standard SCUBA tanks and equipment will be more straightforward. I will sacrifice the valve and move on.

The reason I suggested the RescuEAN was that you'll be diving, around divers, and have access to scuba tanks. That makes the RescuEAN pretty handy. It's also small, compact, and easy to use. It's certainly not the only choice, but I think it makes loads of sense for divers. Plus, you can always use a regular second stage at the surface, or even go back underwater with the same tank/reg. There should always be more O2 onboard/locally, and highest-available FO2 nitrox for when that runs out. Nothing wrong with the medical tanks, but it makes sense to me to be able to adapter your scuba supply as well as (or instead of) the medical tanks.

As for BC inflators not flowing enough: tbone got it right. They flow enough at the surface but quickly become insufficient. I've put a LPI connection between my reg hose and my second stage and it was flowing mildly but noticeably less at the surface, but plenty to breathe off of (you could "feel" it when inhaling hugely). Non-rebreather masks don't require nearly that much flow, so the connection isn't a limiting factor for you.

As for a clothespin, that's a great point that not a lot of people consider....but I'd probably recommend either just pinching the diver's nose or getting a dedicated nose clip. You can get swimmer's nose clips with a case for like $5 online. I even found a pack of 6, 3-each of two different sizes, on Amazon. They're cheap, little, and light to throw in the rescue kit.
 
@tbone1004 Argox. Love it. 7/93 Argox. :)
I'm sure I'm not the only person to have ever come up with it, but I needed a way of distinguishing the ArgOx from "real" O2, especially for rebreather use as the Argon can (and will) build up in the loop. And, honestly, ArgOx is still going to give you the max gradient for off-gassing N2 or He as the Argox's PN2=0 and PHe=0. You'll just be ongassing trace/insignificant amounts of Argon. Plus, you don't have to worry about the narcotic effects at the shallow depths/surface it'll be used at or in the minuscule quantities when blending EANx.
 
As for a clothespin, that's a great point that not a lot of people consider....but I'd probably recommend either just pinching the diver's nose or getting a dedicated nose clip. You can get swimmer's nose clips with a case for like $5 online. I even found a pack of 6, 3-each of two different sizes, on Amazon. They're cheap, little, and light to throw in the rescue kit.

I tell you what: the concept of comfortable, made-for-the-purpose nose plugs and a gag strap for the second stage (for jaw fatigue) may not be a bad long-duration solution to target. I don’t plan on having to support an unconscious diver for a long duration and can therefore live with 30 +/- minutes at high flow with a non-rebreather, continuous flow mask. And in the case of an unconscious diver, I’m less worried about maximum gradient, and more about getting oxygen to their brain - I can live with 60% Actual O2 delivery during that time.

I do feel better about a 100% SCUBA-derived emergency O2 package...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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