OP
SeaJay
Contributor
JeffAustin once bubbled...
Put your Suunto in gauge mode and trust your plan.
Bingo.
Big Mistake
- Thread starter SeaJay
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Bingo.
that isn't a troll... he has a point... how can you and your buddy have different plans?
OP
SeaJay
Contributor
UP, that's totally a troll. The guy's a sockpuppet. I don't know for who, though. 3 posts? Ever? And he knows the term "koolaid?"
I call troll. No offense, UP, but you think that *I* have trolled, which I haven't... Likewise with other members. Thus, I've come to not trust your judgement when you call who's trollin'.
Nobody dove solo. His reference to that is silly and nothing but inflammatory.
I've already mentioned the problem that dive... I did not dive my plan. Why he needs to mention it in numbers two and three on his "list" is simply to flame. Troll.
Numbers five and six, in reference to my training, is another needless flame. He has no idea how much training I've had, or to what extent, or to what level I understood them. I'm proud of the little bit of training that I've had... Rescue, Divemaster, Advanced, and recently, DIR-F. Sure, there's a lot more to be had, but his statements are broad, pointless, inflammatory, and insinuate that I have not grasped the training that I've had... Which is untrue. Again, that's just a troll.
Number seven is totally redundant. The very fact that I came here and shared my mistake and what I DIDN'T know means that I understand my limitations... Or at least that I need to understand them better. Again, this is nothing but inflammatory and redundant. Again, a troll.
Sorry, man... I'm sticking to my gut instinct that this is a sockpuppet troll.
...But since my beloved Uncle Pug asked...
We didn't dive different plans. My buddy's plan was to stick to me, which he did. My gas choice was the limiting factor.
Why did I choose 21% over 32%? Because that's what was available to me, and that's what I've been trained on.
I call troll. No offense, UP, but you think that *I* have trolled, which I haven't... Likewise with other members. Thus, I've come to not trust your judgement when you call who's trollin'.
Nobody dove solo. His reference to that is silly and nothing but inflammatory.
I've already mentioned the problem that dive... I did not dive my plan. Why he needs to mention it in numbers two and three on his "list" is simply to flame. Troll.
Numbers five and six, in reference to my training, is another needless flame. He has no idea how much training I've had, or to what extent, or to what level I understood them. I'm proud of the little bit of training that I've had... Rescue, Divemaster, Advanced, and recently, DIR-F. Sure, there's a lot more to be had, but his statements are broad, pointless, inflammatory, and insinuate that I have not grasped the training that I've had... Which is untrue. Again, that's just a troll.
Number seven is totally redundant. The very fact that I came here and shared my mistake and what I DIDN'T know means that I understand my limitations... Or at least that I need to understand them better. Again, this is nothing but inflammatory and redundant. Again, a troll.
Sorry, man... I'm sticking to my gut instinct that this is a sockpuppet troll.
...But since my beloved Uncle Pug asked...
We didn't dive different plans. My buddy's plan was to stick to me, which he did. My gas choice was the limiting factor.
Why did I choose 21% over 32%? Because that's what was available to me, and that's what I've been trained on.
You may be right, especially since all three of his posts have been direct responses to you (the other two were your "Jetfins Question" post).
Choosing to dive air because you weren't nitrox certified was the correct choice. Your buddy should have planned his dive as an air dive, even tho he was using nitrox, and that would have given him an extra margin of safety.
The biggest problem I saw was your deviation from your dive plan, and although my original comment about narcosis was in jest, I wonder if it may not have had some bearing on your decisions?
Spectre
Contributor
Hmm... this could be one of two things. Either you didn't share the plan with your buddy, or your buddy didn't have any plan.
If you and your buddy didn't have different plans, your buddy would have thrown you the thumb at 12 minutes.
Exactly. When the time limit is hit, or the first person hits the agreed upon turn pressure its
You are confused about *trolls*, *flames* and *sockpuppets* among other things (like *profile*.)
Certainly the poster is a *sockpuppet* but just as certainly is not a *troll*.
The post is legitimate (imo) and not merely inflamatory though it might be considered a *flame*.
If your buddy *planned* his dive and dove his *plan* but that *plan* was simply to stick with you while you followed your *plan* then I think you are both confused about the word *plan* as well.
Nanook's points 1-7 seem fair to me.
OP
SeaJay
Contributor
And crunched with V-planner, my Suunto Dive Manager software, and my dive computer.
It all started on yesterday's dive. I was doing another one of my zero vis fossil dives, and my mind began to wander. Of course, it wandered to the second 'Ross dive, the one in question here on this thread.
I ended up ending my dive somewhere around 6pm, and went home. I didn't even get out of my wetsuit until after 3am. I sat in it all night and played with dive software.
I think Spectre has a point here. I think that a good part of the problem was that I shoulda turned the dive sooner. After all, let's think about this...
1. The NDL displayed on the face of the computer is really this: The amount of time left below the floor of my dive. In other words, I need to be sure that by the time it hits zero, I'm at a depth that allows me to begin offgassing. According to Suunto, that point was 35 feet. In other words, I needed to be at 35 feet or above before my NDL display hit zero. If I was at 98 feet and saw "3 minutes," that meant that I had three minutes to get above 35 feet, or face a deco obligation.
2. The bottom line is that however it happened, I was not above the floor (35 feet) before those three minutes were up. Plain and simple.
3. The whole situation could have been avoided with this tactic. I might have begun my ascent before my three minutes were up, but that wasn't enough... I needed to be above floor before my three minutes were up. So like Spectre said, I simply rose too slow... Or didn't give myself enough time to ascend; whichever way you want to look at it.
...So how can this be solved in the future?
Well, if I'm diving my computer, it means that I need to get above the floor before my NDL hits zero... Not "turn the dive at zero," or even "turn the dive close to zero."
Bottom line: I used my computer incorrectly. Unfortunately, I had to use it incorrectly before understanding how to use it correctly.
I still maintain that had I simply dived my plan, that would have worked also. However, this would have resulted in much shorter dive times. Let's look at this, according to V-planner:
1st dive: 101 foot max. 22 minutes on air. 73.9 cuft of air used.
2nd dive: 98 foot max. 13 minutes on air. (Anything longer puts me into deco.) Less than 40 cuft of air used.
According to Suunto's computer:
1st dive: 101 foot max. 34 minutes of dive time, including a 3 minute safety stop. 74 cuft of air used.
2nd dive: 98 foot max. 23 minutes of dive time, including a 3 minute safety stop. (Anything longer puts me into deco.) 68 cuft of air used.
Bottom line: I get more time out of the Suunto than the V-planner because it's real data taken at the real time. In other words, it's not a square profile like the V-planner uses.
...So what is the "big picture?" Well... I'd like to master both methods. But I think my "Big Mistake" was not understanding the urgency of "3 minutes." Now I know.
...And I'd like to have excellent skills at working profiles using both of these methods, as well as the "quick" method of estimation and just sitting down and working regular ol' PADI tables, too.
Simple. Complete. Period.
It all started on yesterday's dive. I was doing another one of my zero vis fossil dives, and my mind began to wander. Of course, it wandered to the second 'Ross dive, the one in question here on this thread.
I ended up ending my dive somewhere around 6pm, and went home. I didn't even get out of my wetsuit until after 3am. I sat in it all night and played with dive software.
I think Spectre has a point here. I think that a good part of the problem was that I shoulda turned the dive sooner. After all, let's think about this...
1. The NDL displayed on the face of the computer is really this: The amount of time left below the floor of my dive. In other words, I need to be sure that by the time it hits zero, I'm at a depth that allows me to begin offgassing. According to Suunto, that point was 35 feet. In other words, I needed to be at 35 feet or above before my NDL display hit zero. If I was at 98 feet and saw "3 minutes," that meant that I had three minutes to get above 35 feet, or face a deco obligation.
2. The bottom line is that however it happened, I was not above the floor (35 feet) before those three minutes were up. Plain and simple.
3. The whole situation could have been avoided with this tactic. I might have begun my ascent before my three minutes were up, but that wasn't enough... I needed to be above floor before my three minutes were up. So like Spectre said, I simply rose too slow... Or didn't give myself enough time to ascend; whichever way you want to look at it.
...So how can this be solved in the future?
Well, if I'm diving my computer, it means that I need to get above the floor before my NDL hits zero... Not "turn the dive at zero," or even "turn the dive close to zero."
Bottom line: I used my computer incorrectly. Unfortunately, I had to use it incorrectly before understanding how to use it correctly.
I still maintain that had I simply dived my plan, that would have worked also. However, this would have resulted in much shorter dive times. Let's look at this, according to V-planner:
1st dive: 101 foot max. 22 minutes on air. 73.9 cuft of air used.
2nd dive: 98 foot max. 13 minutes on air. (Anything longer puts me into deco.) Less than 40 cuft of air used.
According to Suunto's computer:
1st dive: 101 foot max. 34 minutes of dive time, including a 3 minute safety stop. 74 cuft of air used.
2nd dive: 98 foot max. 23 minutes of dive time, including a 3 minute safety stop. (Anything longer puts me into deco.) 68 cuft of air used.
Bottom line: I get more time out of the Suunto than the V-planner because it's real data taken at the real time. In other words, it's not a square profile like the V-planner uses.
...So what is the "big picture?" Well... I'd like to master both methods. But I think my "Big Mistake" was not understanding the urgency of "3 minutes." Now I know.
...And I'd like to have excellent skills at working profiles using both of these methods, as well as the "quick" method of estimation and just sitting down and working regular ol' PADI tables, too.
Simple. Complete. Period.
OP
SeaJay
Contributor
You know, if there's one person on this board who will admit when he's wrong or when he doesn't understand something, it's me. But I am not *confused* about any of the things you mention. I can assure you that I would admit it if I was.
Of course, if it's your opinion that I'm confused, then you're welcome to it. Sorry, I don't agree.
Sorry you feel that way.
Fair enough. I don't agree.
Nope. There's no confusion.
I didn't stick to my *plan.* There's no confusion. That was my whole point with this thread.
I know exactly what a *plan* is. So does my buddy. His *plan* was perfectly legitimate, and yes, he expressed some concern at 12 minutes. I already mentioned that.
The problem was that I didn't stick to the plan. That's my whole point. He, on the other hand, utilized some of his built in "safety margin" due to his EANx to stick with his buddy.
Question for you, UP: What would YOU have done if your buddy decided he'd dive "a little longer" because the gizmo on his wrist said it was okay? Would you have blown your plan, or would you have left your buddy?
There is no confusion on what the term *plan* means. I made a decision to change it when presented with different data... Which was the mistake that I freely admitted, and recommend against doing.
In fact, while I was doing it, I thought to myself, "I wonder what would happen if I used that three minutes..." and decided to try "changing the plan." I did this at that time because the ramifications were managable at that point, and because I was questioning the tenant of "Plan the dive, dive the plan." My result, predictably, was a problem, which I managed with some of my other dive skills.
Fair enough. I already mentioned above why I don't agree. I can see that I'm not going to change your opinion. I respect that, and I still love my Uncle Pug.
Likewise, I've spent the past 800 posts or so asking questions and sharing whatever I've learned... I've spent the past year or so doing some serious learning, too... And I've spent many thousands of dollars on dive education. I am consistently the top in my class in those courses as well, and I grew up on the local waters... So in addition to all of my formal training, I have a very good practical experience with water.
I know enough to say that I know for sure that I do not know it all. But I do know enough to be confident enough in myself to say, "I made a mistake," and "This is why." Having someone attack my credentials or my understanding or my education or my skills is unacceptable.
...And to have you come in and blatantly support someone who you KNOW is a sockpuppet (something that I believe is against Scubaboard TOS) is also unacceptable.
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