Boat diving.Do we have it all wrong?!

[KenGordon]

As I understand it, in the UK a vessel is allowed to carry up to 12 passengers without complying with far more burdensome inspection requirements of a larger passenger vessel.

In the USA the threshold is 6 passengers. You will find a few “ uninspected” 6 pax vessels with lifts here, but no “ inspected” vessels.

I don’t think I can just buy a random plastic gin palace, strap lift on it and charge people to go diving. I will ask next time I am out.

 

[Wookie]

I don’t think I can just buy a random plastic gin palace, Scapa lift on it and charge people to go diving. I will ask next time I am out.

Even "uninspected passenger vessels" have to follow rules.

 

[KenGordon]

Even "uninspected passenger vessels" have to follow rules.

Is there a formal system to check, before bad stuff happens?

 

[Wookie]

Is there a formal system to check, before bad stuff happens?

No. You are expected to be smart enough to have flares, lifejackets, bilge pumps, working radios, etc.

It doesn't always work out, but then you don't lose any more than 6, so maybe its an even trade-off....

 

[KenGordon]

No. You are expected to be smart enough to have flares, lifejackets, bilge pumps, working radios, etc.

It doesn't always work out, but then you don't lose any more than 6, so maybe its an even trade-off....

So there is no certification or third party proof to look for beforehand getting on such a boat? What about the person in charge?

Back to helping people. One of the boats I might have booked on earlier today has a cabin at the dive deck level to allow for disabled divers who could not safely sleep below. Supporting the likes of Scuba Trust.

 

[Wookie]

So there is no certification or third party proof to look for beforehand getting on such a boat? What about the person in charge?

Back to helping people. One of the boats I might have booked on earlier today has a cabin at the dive deck level to allow for disabled divers who could not safely sleep below. Supporting the likes of Scuba Trust.

No. You have to hope your boat operator is licensed and his boat is safe. That’s why it can have a diverlift.

 

[markmud]

So there is no certification or third party proof to look for beforehand getting on such a boat? What about the person in charge?

No, the PIC is by law supposed to have a USCG OUPV (aka 6 Pax license) or state issued operator's license if the vessel does not hit Waters of the US. State waterways are under the police authority of the individual states.

The OUPV is responsible for ensuring a safe vessel and SOLAS type gear. Insurance companies can and sometimes do require a marine survey for commercial six passenger service.

The paragraph below is from your (UK) MGN280 (design criteria for commercial vessels under 24m):
https://assets.publishing.service.g...ploads/attachment_data/file/527970/mgn280.pdf

"Pleasure vessels are excepted from the code, and included in the definition of pleasure vessels are those vessels wholly owned by or on behalf of a members club. Reference should be made to the Regulations for a proper description of the conditions that need to be met for a members’ club vessel to claim exception as a pleasure vessel. Where any exception to the Regulations or the Code is claimed, the Administration will, if necessary, seek to use the provisions of section 290 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 to establish the facts."

MGN280 states:
"3.4 Sports Diving, Sea Angling and Other Water Based Recreational Activities"

I have only scanned UK vessel design criteria. Seemingly there is an exemption for vessels that are privately owned (for non commercial use). Club divers seem to be included in this exemption. The devil is in the details; however, if I had to bet a dollar, I would say that @Wookie is correct. UK vessels have some of the same loopholes that US non commercial or 6 Pax vessels have.

Lifts don't seem to fall under the same design protocols for privately owned vessels, including club boats.

cheers,
m²V2

 

[Wookie]

No, the PIC is by law supposed to have a USCG OUPV (aka 6 Pax license) or state issued operator's license if the vessel does not hit Waters of the US. State waterways are under the police authority of the individual states.

The OUPV is responsible for ensuring a safe vessel and SOLAS type gear. Insurance companies can and sometimes do require a marine survey for commercial six passenger service.

The paragraph below is from your (UK) MGN280 (design criteria for commercial vessels under 24m):
https://assets.publishing.service.g...ploads/attachment_data/file/527970/mgn280.pdf

"Pleasure vessels are excepted from the code, and included in the definition of pleasure vessels are those vessels wholly owned by or on behalf of a members club. Reference should be made to the Regulations for a proper description of the conditions that need to be met for a members’ club vessel to claim exception as a pleasure vessel. Where any exception to the Regulations or the Code is claimed, the Administration will, if necessary, seek to use the provisions of section 290 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 to establish the facts."

MGN280 states:
"3.4 Sports Diving, Sea Angling and Other Water Based Recreational Activities"

I have only scanned UK vessel design criteria. Seemingly there is an exemption for vessels that are privately owned (for non commercial use). Club divers seem to be included in this exemption. The devil is in the details; however, if I had to bet a dollar, I would say that @Wookie is correct. UK vessels have some of the same loopholes that US non commercial or 6 Pax vessels have.

Lifts don't seem to fall under the same design protocols for privately owned vessels, including club boats.

cheers,
m²V2

There are exemptions in the UK for commercial passenger vessels under 12 pax as well. As there are in the USA if the vessel is over 100 GRT.

Why, I’d bet there are folks who make their whole living just interpreting one countries rules....

 

[KenGordon]

No, the PIC is by law supposed to have a USCG OUPV (aka 6 Pax license) or state issued operator's license if the vessel does not hit Waters of the US. State waterways are under the police authority of the individual states.

The OUPV is responsible for ensuring a safe vessel and SOLAS type gear. Insurance companies can and sometimes do require a marine survey for commercial six passenger service.

The paragraph below is from your (UK) MGN280 (design criteria for commercial vessels under 24m):
https://assets.publishing.service.g...ploads/attachment_data/file/527970/mgn280.pdf

"Pleasure vessels are excepted from the code, and included in the definition of pleasure vessels are those vessels wholly owned by or on behalf of a members club. Reference should be made to the Regulations for a proper description of the conditions that need to be met for a members’ club vessel to claim exception as a pleasure vessel. Where any exception to the Regulations or the Code is claimed, the Administration will, if necessary, seek to use the provisions of section 290 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 to establish the facts."

MGN280 states:
"3.4 Sports Diving, Sea Angling and Other Water Based Recreational Activities"

I have only scanned UK vessel design criteria. Seemingly there is an exemption for vessels that are privately owned (for non commercial use). Club divers seem to be included in this exemption. The devil is in the details; however, if I had to bet a dollar, I would say that @Wookie is correct. UK vessels have some of the same loopholes that US non commercial or 6 Pax vessels have.

Lifts don't seem to fall under the same design protocols for privately owned vessels, including club boats.

cheers,
m²V2

That standard is the one for the sort commercial boat used for diving. It doesn’t apply to proper clubs (and they cover preventing walk up membership) or privately owned boats used for personal purposes.

It mentions stability with respect to cranes but explicitly excludes lifts for people.

What is the equivalent one for US waters? I have looked on e-CFR but really need paying to go there...

 

[markmud]

There are exemptions in the UK for commercial passenger vessels under 12 pax as well.

Yep, https://assets.publishing.service.g...oads/attachment_data/file/830938/red_code.pdf

The service area limitations are quite severe, it seems. Five to twenty miles from departure and daylight only. Hardly worth the trouble. Better to use the exemption I posted above.

As there are in the USA if the vessel is over 100 GRT.

I always thought that was a holdover from a bygone era. Have you ever witnessed that loophole in use? A yacht charter maybe; not for strict commercial use.

That standard is the one for the sort commercial boat used for diving.

Yes, but it states the exemption for private ownership (clubs).

What is the equivalent one for US waters?

What specifically are you asking for? For US trade, your choices are for uninspected passenger vessels with 6 passengers for hire, or uninspected vessels of 100 gross tons or more with at least one person for hire nor more than 12. All others are inspected vessels (with a COI).

For vessels with a COI, a naval architect must supply working drawings with engineering calculations for design review and approval by the Coast Guard for a human lift installation. Is that what you are asking?

cheers,
m²V2