BP/W banned in DM Course

[Jim Ernst]

I very strongly agree with many of the others here, I would find a new Instructor with More sense , Students need to see/learn different gear configs, and they need to see/learn how to do Buddy checks and Understand there buddies gear...

The students are not going to have a dive buddy with the exact same gear in the real world, so why train them to think that!!

 

[Divedoggie]

That was exactly how I felt when he told me he did not want me to use my BP/W in the OW sessions anymore. I didn't want him to think I am trying to be a smartA** and argue with him about it so I just agreed to it.

IMO:
Once you are a DM and eventually an Instructor, you should use any equipment that you see fit, but as long as you are a DMC, and the Instructor that you have been working with will be signing off on all of your paperwork, then you probably ought to just suck it up and use the gear he prefers.

 

[Ste Wart]

Just for the record, I am not poo-pooing my instructor. On the other hand I think he is a very good instructor. Its just that his decisions about my rig just left me really bummed out :depressed:

Now I am actually worried that he will tell me not to use the frog kick in case his students get confused about the propulsion techniques...one of the OW students already emulated me and asked me about it

I think he's being unreasonable.

What's to stop him turning around and saying 'you can't ware Mares BCD's' (which I would )
I did my IDC in a Zeagle Brigade, no issue, also surprisingly I wasn't the only one; I did my IDC in the UK.
I used that without issue for many years. Then I switched it to Zeagle BP and Harness with clips, now I use a One Piece harness and a long hose. There's no issue.
Occasionally I have to brief a little more if I'm doing a 1 person OW course and they need to take my long hose for Alternate Air, but isn't that what I'm paid to do?
You're instructor is being narrow minded. You're already a role model for possessing all of your own equipment. You match the equipment requirements by standards. I highly doubt the students are any more confused my your configuration as they are more focused internally on completing the skills.
If they probe you with questions, then good, it shows an interest in the course.

 

[DevonDiver]

He is actually fine with Air2 system I think, but somehow I get the impression that he thinks BP/W are not for recreational divers but tec divers only (like so many people who were misinformed).

It seems like there are serious limitations in his dive industry knowledge then. BP&Ws are becoming increasingly prevalent on the diving scene - especially with the 'core' of committed, regular divers. 10 years ago it may have been forgiveable for a supposed 'industry professional' to be clueless about BP&W systems, but nowadays this has become relatively 'mainstream'.

We did talk about it before I signed up but he made it a point to tell me he did not like nor was he interested about DIR gear configuration...

It seems he jumped on a bandwagon of ignorance and ego about a decade ago and then didn't bother to look out the window since then.

It seems to be natural for some people to deny those things that they don't understand. It's a very close-minded and insecure attitude. Some people choose to live in ignorance, rather than admit their limitations and seek to overcome them.

That's not to say that your instructor is wrong for having an opinion... just that he is wrong to have an opinion based on willful ignorance.

I told him I didnt think it was safer or better, just different and happens to be my preference. He was fine the first time we went out but after actually observing me set up my gear (he was literally standing over me and telling me he was just watching what I was doing), he did not want me to be in that rig for OW sessions for the reasons stated above.

Quite frankly...if I was you... I would be questioning this instructors suitability to be my mentor and guide. Other than the textbook PADI 'do this and do that', ticking off the skills in the manual... what is he going to offer you in terms of overall development as a well-rounded, progressive diver?

I happen to think exposing new divers to different rigs is a good thing but I guess some instructors are concerned about task loading (which in this case wasn't even a task).

From my experience, active denial (whether about scuba configurations, or any other issue in life) tends to be rooted in insecurity, rather than in any functional or logistical rationale. Of course, people who wear blinkers, or who are unable to intellectually grasp a broader spectrum of opportunity, do tend to validate their stances with denials and excuses.

There's nothing in the PADI manual that prohibits the use of BP&W or long-hose during any of their training courses. But... it's his class and he is within his rights to set whatever rules he wants. If I was in your position, I'd vote with my feet....

 

[TSandM]

It is the instructor's prerogative to object to your equipment. But I hope he (or the shop) is planning on providing you with other equipment to use?

The argument that students will be confused by your gear is, in my experience, specious. I use a backplate and long hose in OW, and have yet to have any student even appear to notice that my gear is different from theirs. They're generally so overloaded managing their OWN stuff, I don't think they even look at mine (I know I had no idea what equipment my instructors used, or whether it was like mine.)

Issues like this were part of the reason I didn't move to DM until my husband was an instructor and could run my class.

 

[herman]

So after the 2nd time we went out with some students doing their OW course as a DMC and seeing me set up my gear, my instructor told me that he didn't want me to use my BP/W and my long hose configuration for OW dives anymore

The reason was that he didn't want the OW students to be confused about my gear. Although I don't quite agree with that statement, I intend to comply with his instructions. I can't help but feel bummed out about using a jacket BCD and back to using more weights.
What would you have done?

He is actually fine with Air2 system I think, but somehow I get the impression that he thinks BP/W are not for recreational divers but tec divers only (like so many people who were misinformed). We did talk about it before I signed up but he made it a point to tell me he did not like nor was he interested about DIR gear configuration and "allowed" me to use it provided I do not give the students any impression that is is "safer" than the standard rig. I told him I didnt think it was safer or better, just different and happens to be my preference. He was fine the first time we went out but after actually observing me set up my gear (he was literally standing over me and telling me he was just watching what I was doing), he did not want me to be in that rig for OW sessions for the reasons stated above.

I happen to think exposing new divers to different rigs is a good thing but I guess some instructors are concerned about task loading (which in this case wasn't even a task).

Maybe what we you are dealing with is someone who has had some DIR_F'ed diver to deal with in the past. Forgive me but I read a little of it in your tone- I might be wrong and if so, I apoligize but go with me a little. Being a DMC, you should be at the level where gear does not matter, you should be able to dive any BC you are handed with equal ease, instead of being excited about working with students you are "bummed out" about what BC you are wearing. In a later post you said he made it a point to tell you he did not care about DIR nor want his students given the impression a BP is safer- again sounds like he has delt with a DIR-F'ed diver before and you were at least giving the impression he may have one on his hands again. While I don't necessariliy agree with you not being able to use a BP I can see why an instructor would want to head off a DIR-F'ed type conversation in his class. I DM a lot and do feel students need to see a wide varity of gear, so do our instructors. In confined water, we all dive standard jacket BCs and standard octs, in OW we dive the gambit from jackets to BP/wing/long hose and pretty much everything in between. I even throw in a double hose reg (modified so it does meet equipment requirements) on occasion just to mix it up and we go out of our way to point out the differences.
Ease off the coolaid, put on the BC and learn to make it look as good as you look in your BP/wing and show them what a good diver looks like.....one who is in control of his gear, not the other way around.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I'm with the short sighted instructor crowd here. Yes a DM should be able to put on any gear, even if it doesn't fit and make it look good. But if I have a DM show up in a double hose, BPW, or a utd z system and they can do the skills they would be not only allowed but encouraged to use it for ow classes and training dives of any type where it would be appropriate.
I'd look at this as an incredible opportunity to give my students that much more info. During the pool sessions of an ow class I go from a jacket, to a back inflate, to a BPW, and to my zeagle express tech. I have yet to see an ow student get confused by any of them when they see these in the water. But then again they are exposed to all of them during the 2 hour equipment lecture before they even get on scuba themselves. And I will often do checkouts wearing doubles.

The dir f'd comment is simply ridiculous as there are few dir divers that today would seem to project any kind of negative image. I'm more inclined to go with the instrctors ignorance of the gear and Perhaps he doesn't sell it as the reason for his baseless prejudice against it.

 

[herman]

Jim, I agree with you that todays DIR divers are a lot more.....civil for lack of a better term and I dive/have dove with some great ones.... but we both go back to the days of being called a stroke, told computers will rot your brain and in your face "you are unsafe" was a common attitude. It's hard to forget some of them and maybe this instructor has memories of dealing with one of those folks. His attitude came from somewhere, not that I agree with it. I can't imagine you would want one or allow of those hopefully long gone types in your class as a DM. I did DIR-F during those days and fond memories of the the class and my instructors but I also remember some of the members here who were quick to call someone a stroke or trash you for what they considered unsafe.

 

[Cave Diver]

I agree with Peter and others who think it's beneficial to expose students to different gear. After all who is to say their first OW dive after certification won't be on a boat with a bunch of BPW guys?

I also agree with your decision to respect your instructors request, at least for however long you plan to work with him.

Personally though, I would discuss the situation with him and take some of the thoughts and ideas presented here and hopefully he'll be open minded enough to reconsider. Maybe let you use your gear in the last two pool sessions to offer students a different perspective?

If he's not at least open to the discussion about it, I'd personally reconsider my working relationship with him.

 

[hypertech]

No kidding, find a different instructor to work with. The shop I'm at now has been so busy lately, there has not been any extra gear for me to grab a BC, so I wear my plate. Every once in a while, I'll get a question like - doesn't that hurt? And I explain no and why. If they ask about my long hose configuration, I explain why and use it as an opportunity to explain why it is important to understand the gear configuration of your buddy as it may be different from what you are learning on (e.g., octopus vs, safe second, etc).