Buoyancy skills

[The Chairman]

Rule of primacy: You will fall back to the very first way you were shown/taught a skill when you get stressed. If you first learned on your knees, you'll go back to that when stressed.

BTW, I learned this rule in my NAUI ITC. The very class where they taught me how to control my students by getting them to kneel. I don't know why they didn't make that connection, but I certainly did. Teach them once in the way you want them to do it forever. I put my students in control of their diving from the beginning and that allows me to concentrate on their evolution to becoming a diver rather than where they might be at any given moment.

 

[RainPilot]

To add on to what Pete is saying about Primacy.

A couple of weeks ago I was taking some AOW candidates on their deep dive, a wreck here which is 115' on the sand and around 90' on the deck level. Usually we will swim around the wreck on the bottom, then ascend to the deck level and do another circuit or two there.

As we come around the bow on our deep circuit, I see a lone diver ahead of us, kneeling on the sand. Confused, i look for a buddy and see the buddy at the deck level looking down. I look back and realize she is clearing her mask, as soon as she is done she swam back up to the buddy and they continued. Swimming around the sand storm she left, my students and I looked at each other with a telepathic, "Did we really just see that??" look. She must have been at least AOW to be there as well...

Really not sure what people like that do when there's no hard deck, don't dive I guess?


Here's a good read on the principles of learning:
Principles of learning - Wikipedia

 

[The Chairman]

Really not sure what people like that do when there's no hard deck,

They kneel on my reef and it pisses me off.

 

[boulderjohn]

It should be noted that the paper John submitted to PADI and the ensuing discussion became the impetus for the changes that lead to the new OW standard. Yes, it started right here on Scubaboard.

Yes and no. The difference is actually an important point.

I picked the people I wanted to have participate in the discussions from what I saw people post on ScubaBoard. I wanted a pretty large group with diverse experiences covering a wide geographical area--I managed to get almost all the continents. I wanted people with different areas of expertise. For example, I included Dr. Sam Miller for his expertise on the history of dive instruction. All the names of the people I invited were people I encountered on ScubaBoard. The discussions that led to the article, however, did not take place on ScubaBoard, and the reason why is important to this discussion.

If you do a search for scuba discussion forums, you will see that there are quite a few that have very little participation. I picked one of those forums and selected the Instructor to Instructor portion of that forum. I invited everyone to join that forum, and we discussed the concept there. It was in plain sight, but hidden by the fact that no one else went there. In fact, when I revisited the site a year after our article was published, I saw that no one else had even viewed the discussion, let alone tried to participate. Thus, we essentially had our own private site, and I cautioned everyone to keep it that way.

Why?

ScubaBoard had (and still has) a number of active participants I very pointedly did NOT want involved. I knew that if they got wind of it, they would interfere with those efforts to the best of their ability. I'm pretty sure I was right, and if you were to do a search on ScubaBoard for the discussions that took place AFTER we published the article, you would see why. Even though PADI published our article, and even after PADI Technical Director Karl Shreeves became involved as a co-author of the article, people were posting extremely aggressive posts saying that teaching that way was a violation of PADI standards, and any instructor who did what we suggested risked being expelled. I would say that many of those posts were on the edge of lunacy, but the truth is I thought they were over the edge. Imagine what would have happened if we had had the discussion here BEFORE writing the article!

So here's my point: the greatest obstacle to teaching the way we advocated in that article is interference by those who are opposed to it. Why are they opposed to it? I will now differentiate between the positions of the two opposing camps in this debate, admitting that there will be some hyperbole and sarcasm in the description.

Typical Proponent Argument: I learned diving skills, and I learned to teach diving skills, while on the knees. At some point, I became curious about neutral teaching, and I started trying it. The difference was amazing! I found students learned faster, they were more comfortable, and they finished the pool sessions looking like seasoned divers. The difference between the two methods is simply huge, and I can never go back to my old on-the-knees method.

Typical Opponent Argument: I learned diving skills, and I learned to teach diving skills, while on the knees. I have never seen it done neutrally, but my powers of imagination are so incredible that I can tell exactly what it would be like. I know students will not be comfortable, they will have trouble learning the skills, and it will all take much too long. What I imagine it must look like is so horrible that I will do everything in my power to make sure this does not happen in the places where I teach.

 

[txgoose]

So, rather than learning how to relax from the beginning, they try to do that when they get to the deep end. Did I get that right?

Except for the boys and I, I don't know that there was any stress. We bobbed up and down as we breathed and learned how to share air, etc. I am new so there is the standard experience caveat, but I would be really really impressed to see new divers hold a hover in four feet of water and share air. As you know there are huge volume swings in both the BC and the lungs at those depths. Our instructor hovered. I realize that it can be done. I am just surprised that this skill in shallow water would be a priority.

Rule of primacy: You will fall back to the very first way you were shown/taught a skill when you get stressed. If you first learned on your knees, you'll go back to that when stressed.

A semi prone position? I am not debating the rights or wrongs of it. I have no time as an instructor. I am just assuming that if one of my family needed air, the patriarch in me is going to be all about getting face to face, looking them in the eyes and getting them sorted out. I can't tell you that I am going to give one rat's hiney about my trim. The micro second that my instincts kick into face-to-face mode, by default we will most likely be vertical and more accurately chest to chest.. We could be chest to chest on our sides but I wouldn't expect that.

Force of habit: it takes longer to unlearn a bad habit and reintroduce a good one than to simply learn it the right way first. No matter how hard you try, a habit will linger for a long, long time even after you've corrected it. This is especially true for scullers! The "Force" runs through them for either good or evil. I'm not going to give bad habits, like kneeling, a chance to take hold.

I guess I thought that I was describing a modification in that we weren't in the classical sense kneeling? (okay, okay, I will not fault you for a second if you submit that our "bobbing" position is a gateway drug to kneeling. )

Fear is an enemy of good buoyancy. If you're not comfortable in the water, you'll be all over the place. It's one reason why I make trim and neutral buoyancy the very first skill on scuba. Once the student is past their fear and trepidation of being suspended mid-water, true learning can be accomplished. IOW, if they're not relaxed, they're going to be constantly distracted while I'm trying to teach them. Then they learn each skill in situ, just as they would be using it in open water. We do it until they're relaxed, constantly building on be in trim and neutral. No unlearning. No relearning. I honor the rule of primacy and use the force of habit for good and avoid all its negatives. It's truly efficient and makes training easier for me and my student. The best part is that they won't need a hundred dives to perfect their buoyancy. They're way ahead of that curve and relaxed. No white knuckle divers needed on the reef.

While I wouldn't for a second claim that buoyancy isn't crazy important (I am working on it in the pool diligently) I am surprised to hear that there is a big fear of being suspended in the water. If you have read my thread about my wife's buoyancy as a direct relation to her fear you will know that I am very much a proponent for helping divers be relaxed. We worked for hours on her finding a way to a happy underwater place, very slowly. I think that relaxation is about as critical as it gets. The witnessed my wife task loaded with nothing to do but be relaxed. (The instructor saw this as well and adjusted.) I agree with your thoughts there completely. A distracted diver isn't learning well. I am, however, surprised that you can get brand new divers to hover in shallow water and do most of the skills we're required to do for cert. By default I would submit that any divers able to do that have nothing less to prove at depth other than proper assent skills. But I am also open to the thought that I'd be less surprised if I had gone through your class first and as you say, didn't know any differently.

As you and I already discussed LNT elsewhere, I am very interested in helping my family damage no reefs.

 

[The Chairman]

ScubaBoard had (and still has) a number of active participants I very pointedly did NOT want involved.

Yet, John could have had a private forum here if he had asked. I'm pretty easy in that regard. It's water under the bridge, but the genesis for his discussion was here and as he pointed out many of the participants came from here. At one point, way before that happened, John questioned my truthfulness when I posted that I wouldn't let my students kneel. Now, he's one of the most strident supporters of getting people off their knees. ScubaBoard is first and foremost a place of learning and evolving our sport.

Did it hurt that John took the conversation elsewhere? Sure. Am I glad he had an impact with PADI? I'm even more sure about that. In fact, that made me double my efforts to make ScubaBoard a friendlier site. Neutral buoyancy is far bigger than any of us. No one person can take credit for it alone.

 

[The Chairman]

Except for the boys and I, I don't know that there was any stress.

Ascending because a new skill is being introduced, is a sign of stress. It's normal.

I guess I thought that I was describing a modification in that we weren't in the classical sense kneeling?

I got the feeling that you were still mostly vertical rather than horizontal. I take care that my students are almost always horizontal.

I am just assuming that if one of my family needed air, the patriarch in me is going to be all about getting face to face, looking them in the eyes and getting them sorted out.

Which should be done in trim. HOWEVER, why would you let them run out of air in the first place? Buddy's should know what their buddy's air supply is throughout the dive. A couple of checks with lots of extrapolation in between and you should know. Your buddy is your responsibility as much as they are your redundant air, fins, eyes and most importantly: your redundant BRAIN. You have failed as a buddy if either of you runs out. You both failed and you should identify how it happened and rectify that. Since I've been diving with an SPG, I've never ever run out of air and neither has my buddy.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

I know I was not taught neutral and the more I learn from here the more I realize my class didn't do a very good job of making sure I could dive safely. The only time spent on buoyancy was when we did fin pivots. We were kneeling for all the skills which for me, was incredibly difficult.

Everyone else was kneeling and I was being pushed face first down or my feet were trying to float up. The solution was to add another pound of weight in each trim pocket and to put 1 1/2 lb weights on each ankle.

Now I struggle with buoyancy but am working on it every chance I get to splash. I even decided to put on my fins and BCD complete with tank and regs and laid in the driveway on a towel working on finning, finding my SMB to unclip and clip back on, etc. Working skills so I slow down, can do them blindfolded and as I become more comfortable with these skills my buoyancy will surely improve.

It also doesn't help that my dive buddy has less experience than I do but baby steps!!

I know that I wish I was taught neutral as I know from my practice that if I had that down and was dialed in as far as weight and my gear config, my diving would be much easier and maybe then I could last longer than 23 minutes on a AL80.

As many know I am working towards becoming an instructor and this thread holds a ton of value as it highlights how to teach when neutral and would be a value to all instructors both present and future.

This thread reminds me of a few memes I found from Cave Diver Harry, one of which is below.

 

[RainPilot]

PLEASE post a video of you doing skills in the driveway, priceless!

Kudos to you for seeing your limitations and taking them head on.

It's ironic to me that one of the main reasons people get into diving is to be weightless underwater and swim like and with the fish. They are then never shown / never ask how to act do that...


Also, if people want to have a "private forum discussion " here, the new conversation feature is perfect. Start a conversation and add people in as you need to. Acts as a virtual private forum.

 

[MichaelMc]

Then I get them to do some weighting exercises with mask and snorkel, what they are doing is exhaling until lung mid point, they start getting short hovers around here:

Thanks! This answers my question of how to teach horizontal hovers in skin gear (mask, snorkel, suit, belt, fins) when all the weight would be on the belt. Have them hold some or all of the weight. It's not like they need both hands for anything else, and it they exhale too much for the hover they can always drop soft weights if needed. I like the no fins simplicity to focus on trim. It also makes it an easy drill to do after a required first day swim test when all they need is swimsuit, googles, mask, snorkel.