Canister Insulation

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So the question is if you put it on the inhale side, you are checking for any CO2, ergo big alarms going off if there is any CO2 detected, or do you put it on the exhale side where you need to have to have the diver monitor the CO2 levels and watch for any sudden rise because of the roughly 4% CO2 in exhaled gas

Well, it's a pretty simple software problem to just make the alarm go off for X% rise in ETCO2, as opposed to having the diver monitor the absolute number. Any readout is calculated from an analog signal anyway. It's the same issue as with calibration of O2 sensors. Even though we learn to check mV, during the dive we are monitoring an extrapolated and standardized number (the PO2 readout).

But I agree that the relevant design issue is that it's more fail safe to have the alarm go off for any value above zero, than to have the alarm go off for a specific increase in that same number. So you would be trading that advantage for the disadvantage of missing non-scrubber-related hypercapnea.
 
When I purchased my kiss I paid the extra $ and had them add the insulation foam to the unit, if compared to another unit that doesn't have the foam, you can see mine is a bit thicker, but overall not noticable. I dive in cold water when I am not diving in FL, so thus why I added the foam insulation.
 
That's a really good point.

It's probably hard to find data on this, but I wonder what the incidence of breakthrough / scrubber failure / hypercapnea is for divers who pack their scrubbers carefully and don't exceed the manufacturer's duration limits. My suspicion is that it's probably pretty low.

I guess a significant undetected flood or a flapper valve failure (after passing the pre-dive stereo check) could result in an "undeserved" CO2 hit, but those are rare scenarios.

I wrote the above as being separate from a pre-dive check of the mushroom valves - which should be a given, but I agree that having a mushroom valve get folded open or stuck open with foreign matter is a risk.

It's also a risk you can minimize by taking care to avoid any foreign matter in the DSV. Mostly that means leaving the DSV in your mouth and not doing any drills until the end of the dive. The exception would be if you need to spit out a gob of snot. You don't want that in the wagon wheel for the exhaust valve, so you would want to go off the loop to spit it out.
 
Funny that I ran into this "insulating topic" here today ! I just stumbled across this thread through google; while searching for types of pressure and water resistant insulation for this very same purpose ! If you don't ask the question correctly, the search engine gives you such a run-around, LOL ! So I have a new Tec SE7EN coming, and I am toying with the idea of scrubber housing insulation, it sure can't hurt if done correctly IMHO ! How about painting the inside of the housing with a "ceramic thermal insulating coating" ? I read where this coating works on super heated steam piping = several coats will allow you to touch the surface ! And a video shows a hot plate with one side coated with this stuff. At a surface temp. of 300 deg. F., an ice cube doesn't melt on the coated side ! But I'm not so sure if this ceramic sphere bead type coating would be that effective on our RBs with a much less of a temperature gradient factor ??
I have also been looking hi & lo for a company that could apply this Syntactic foam to the outside of my scrubber housing, like KISS did, can't find ? Even thought about peel & stick nylon backed closed cell neoprene, but it's compressible ? However I do like the idea of the Rino coat over whatever insulation is applied. We'll keep looking and inquiring, and let ya all know if I discover something promising ! Craig H.
 
exhaled CO2 is variable based on workload and O2 consumption.

Hi rjack,

This is true in one sense, but maybe not in the way you mean.

If we exercise harder, we consume more oxygen and produce more CO2. That CO2 is carried to the lungs in the blood, and breathed out. So, it is technically correct to say that more CO2 will be being eliminated by exhalation during higher workload, and less at rest.

BUT:

The amount of CO2 in each breath will (or more correctly should) remain the same.... we just breathe more frequently to eliminate that extra CO2. Monitoring the PCO2 in the exhaled gas therefore remains a valid way of appraising body CO2 levels even during exercise. I will explain in a little more detail.

First a bit of respiratory physiology. It is really important to understand that it is the amount of breathing that determines the amount of CO2 removed from the body. If you breathe more, then more CO2 is eliminated, and if you breathe less, then less CO2 is eliminated. Not surprisingly, breathing is regulated by a region of the brain to keep CO2 levels normal, without us having to think about it. Thus, in your exercise scenario, more CO2 is produced and so the brain drives more breathing to keep the body CO2 levels normal. This means more breaths, but the amount of CO2 in each breath will stay approximately the same. Indeed, during exercise on land the brain tends to over-compensate with excess breathing and body CO2 levels often fall a little. This provides an interesting contrast with diving which I will come back to later.

Now to monitoring body CO2 levels. The most common form of body CO2 level monitoring is the use of "end tidal CO2". This means measuring the partial pressure of CO2 (PCO2) in the exhaled breath at the very end of each exhalation as doctormike has explained. The reason this works is that the gas coming out of the mouth at the end of exhalation has come from the deepest part of the lungs - the alveoli. The alveoli are in intimate contact with the blood, and blood and alveolar gas pressures equilibrate during each inhalation and exhalation. Thus, by measuring the PCO2 in the exhaled alveolar gas, we are effectively measuring the PCO2 in the blood. There are a few assumptions and potential sources of inaccuracy, but it mainly works well. I (and every anesthesiologist in the world) use this technology every day wen mechanically ventilating patients (who are not breathing for themselves) in order to ensure ventilation is adequate to keep the blood CO2 levels normal.

The big advantage of measuring end tidal CO2 is that it detects an increase in body CO2 no matter what is causing it. The focus in this thread has been on the possibility that CO2 might break through the scrubber canister in a rebreather. That is certainly one potential cause for failure to adequately eliminate CO2 and a rise in body CO2. But it is often under-appreciated that the most common cause of high body CO2 levels in diving has nothing to do with CO2 breaking through a scrubber; it is simply a failure to breathe enough to eliminate the CO2 we are producing. This is often referred to as "CO2 retention". Put simply (because it is a complex phenomenon) when the work of breathing is increased, the brain becomes less sensitive to rising body CO2 levels, and is less likely to drive enough breathing to keep CO2 levels normal. Thus, CO2 level rise simply because we don't breathe enough to eliminate it. Since the work of breathing is invariably increased in diving (by things like dense gas and equipment resistance) CO2 retention is commonly seen. Exercise makes it worse, and the worst combination is heavy exercise with a significantly increased work of breathing. In addition, some people are more prone to CO2 retention than others.

The point is that end tidal CO2 will detect problems due to inhaling CO2 or due to CO2 retention whereas a CO2 monitor on the inhale side of a rebreather circuit will only tell you if you are inhaling CO2. Put another way, a diver could have dangerously high body CO2 levels due to CO2 retention, but the CO2 monitor on the inhale side would be showing zero. That is not to say that inhale CO2 monitors have no value, and it is possible to have both. Indeed, if you look at the capnography trace provided by doctormike you can see that it can show you: first, that the inhaled PCO2 falls to zero during inhalation (labelled phases 0 and 1), that is, there is no breakthrough; and second, what the end tidal PCO2 is at the end of exhalation. So you get the best of both worlds. However, this requires that the monitor itself is in the mouthpiece, or that gas is continuously sampled from the mouthpiece.

No one has managed to achieve this in a rebreather yet. As others have suggested, this relates in part to the challenges of putting an infra-red CO2 sensor in a 100% humid environment. The Apocalypse iCCR was designed to monitor end tidal CO2, but the original description of their methodology (almost 10 years ago now) was flawed, and a description of subsequent modifications is difficult to interpret and yet to be verified. They are still saying it is coming but who would know.

Simon M
 
Yes sorry to generate so much work for you responding Simon lol. I wasn't trying to suggest that it wasn't possible to measure CO2 in a meaningful way because workloads were variable.

The bigger issue I see with insulation in general is that its another variable that clearly influences scrubber efficiency but that is challenging to track by the diver with actual data. I forget if it was Craig Clark or someone else who demonstrated that while you would think that lower workload would extend scrubber duration, it can actually shorten it because the stack temperature isn't as warm and media efficiency declines overwhelm the lower Co2 production.

Not holding my breath for a useful Co2 sensor anytime soon.
 
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