Can't reliably reach doubles valves....Help!

[DC53]

Ok, so I am a fairly inexperienced diver with only about 130 dives (although most have been in cold water and poor visibility or in relatively rough open ocean conditions.) I am experimenting with doubles (about a dozen dives so far) because I want to be able to do longer and or deeper dives that will require some decompression, and think that I should have proper instruction for such activities. I have “signed up” for some IANTD instruction which should occur in the near future.

However, I although I am trim, athletic, and have a low BMI, (and a low SAC rate) and have been a competitive athelete for most of my life I reach the point now in the year 2010 where I am 57 years old, have had rotator cuff surgery on my left shoulder, and simply no longer have the physical strength and flexibility that I once had. The net result is that I can sometimes reach the valves on my new doubles set, and sometimes not. I've read everything there is, including TS&M's reference to a complete instruction posting on reaching doubles.

I stretch my shoulders with weights while lying on the couch (to the hysteria of others in the vicinity). Nevertheless, it takes me an eternity to shut down a valve - if I can - (although interestingly the isolator is easier than the tank valves.) Common sense and a mechanical engineering background says to me that a set of valve shut downs that rest on my shoulder straps seems to be the “Only Common Sense” response. I am experienced in epoxy / carbon fibre / composite construction and can manufacture (or can buy if I know where-money, no object) some “valve extenders” that are extremely unlikely to fail. (Yes, at this point, I would rather stake my life on an extra layer of technology rather than the more uncertain and slower possibility of reaching the valves in a situation of regulator failure.)

However, before I move in that direction I have decided to seek out the feedback that ScubaBoard can offer, as I have found your input to be invaluable in the past. I am reluctant to rely too heavily on the redundancy of doubles until I solve this problem.

Thank you in advance for any input you might offer in regards to this issue.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

Three options are to
1. Raise the tanks a little by lowering the bands.
2. When you reach back, use your free hand to push your other elbow. You'll be amazed at how much more your arm can move.
3. Reach behind with your free hand and lift the bottom of the tanks.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Ok, so I am a fairly inexperienced diver with only about 130 dives (although most have been in cold water and poor visibility or in relatively rough open ocean conditions.) I am experimenting with doubles (about a dozen dives so far) because I want to be able to do longer and or deeper dives that will require some decompression, and think that I should have proper instruction for such activities. I have “signed up” for some IANTD instruction which should occur in the near future.

However, I although I am trim, athletic, and have a low BMI, (and a low SAC rate) and have been a competitive athelete for most of my life I reach the point now in the year 2010 where I am 57 years old, have had rotator cuff surgery on my left shoulder, and simply no longer have the physical strength and flexibility that I once had. The net result is that I can sometimes reach the valves on my new doubles set, and sometimes not. I've read everything there is, including TS&M's reference to a complete instruction posting on reaching doubles.

I stretch my shoulders with weights while lying on the couch (to the hysteria of others in the vicinity). Nevertheless, it takes me an eternity to shut down a valve - if I can - (although interestingly the isolator is easier than the tank valves.) Common sense and a mechanical engineering background says to me that a set of valve shut downs that rest on my shoulder straps seems to be the “Only Common Sense” response. I am experienced in epoxy / carbon fibre / composite construction and can manufacture (or can buy if I know where-money, no object) some “valve extenders” that are extremely unlikely to fail. (Yes, at this point, I would rather stake my life on an extra layer of technology rather than the more uncertain and slower possibility of reaching the valves in a situation of regulator failure.)

However, before I move in that direction I have decided to seek out the feedback that ScubaBoard can offer, as I have found your input to be invaluable in the past. I am reluctant to rely too heavily on the redundancy of doubles until I solve this problem.

Thank you in advance for any input you might offer in regards to this issue.

A video clip of you actually trying to reach your valves would be very helpful.

There could be some very easy corrections that a knowledgeable instructor or diver could spot. The cut of your drysuit or wetsuit, the position of your elbow, the fit of your harness, the position of your head, the placement of your first stages, your hose routing, whether or not your harness is pulling your suit downward retarding your reach, your body position, the type of knobs you are using, the ease of spin on the knobs, plus a list of other factors all affect the quality of your reach and ability to move your hand wheels.

My friend Jimmy cannot reach his valves consistently no matter what he tries due to rotator surgery. I've tried to help him as well as a good GUE instructor. Jimmy decided to switch to sidemount diving. I'm cool with that. GUE ... not so much.

 

[SandyRobinson]

I have never tried this method but I have heard others say to loosen your belt during your valve drills. I think this may give you a little more freedom in moving the tanks up.

FWIW, I am 52 and recently had surgery to repair a ruptured distal bicep tendon. I was just cleared to dive so my buddy and I bought Nomads so we can sidemount - decided to put a little less pressure on our backs and knees.

 

[HenrikBP]

I had some shoulder surgery a year or two ago, and found after surgery that what I needed most in order to reach valves was 1) forward flexion - which is what we all stretch and 2) external rotation which we pretty much never work on.

So I started to include external rotation in my standard shoulder stretch. When I do this stretch:

http://www.weightlossforall.com/images/shoulder triceps stretching.JPG

rather than letting my forearm hang down the center of my back (as in the picture), I put the thumb of my opposite hand on the "stretching" forearm and gently push outward.

So far so good - I just started doubles and actually have an easier time reaching my valves than in a single tank. I've been working on my stretches all winter and the first dives of the season is Saturday. So we'll see how it goes

Hope that made sense.

 

[Scott L]

TSandM posted a very good write-up in a UK diving board on the subject a few days ago. I will see if I can retreive...In the interim, the crux of the post centered upon keeping your elbows tight against your head palm facing inward while reaching back to grasp valve.

Also, to reach the manifold valve, place right hand behind neck and tilt head backwards landing your hand directly onto the valve. That works like a charm for me and most anyone else...

 

[JonKranhouse]

Consider what commercial divers have been doing for 70+ years...

Many commercial and military divers would argue that it's safer and more efficient to rig doubles with the manifold facing down. The valve-down orientation makes it MUCH easier to reach and manipulate the valves. If the range of motion of your shoulder is restricted for any reason (e.g. entanglement, injury, shifting dry suit), would you rather reach down comfortably toward your waist, or have to completely bail from your rig just to twist a valve?

Why isn't this configuration taught recreational divers? Good question. There's 72 years of history behind the valve-down paradigm.

Georges Commeinhes invented the world's first demand-valve underwater breathing apparatus in 1937, six years prior to Cousteau / Gagnan's publicized dives. Commeinhes mounted his tanks with the valves oriented downward. Unfortunately, Commeinhes died in battle during World War 2, and his accomplishments have been mostly forgotten; Commeinhes was a true innovator:

Cousteau also used waist-level valves on multi-tank configurations.

In 2009, many commercial divers continue to mount their valves at the bottom.

When filling air, just put the tanks "upside-down" so the valves are on top. A single bungee cord wrapped around your entire rig keeps hoses / inflators / second-stage from flopping about.

Custom guards exist to protect tank valves / first-stages; one version hinges away when a coder pin is pulled.

Virtually no firefighter wears their SCBA with the tank valve facing up.

(Starting in the 1920's, Commeinhes father invented and built respirators for French firefighters; all used a valve-down design.)

 

[DaleC]

Hi DC53,
If all else fails and you truly cannot manipulate the valves I think Traces suggestion of sidemounting is a good one. I dive backmounted independant doubles and they are often touted as being truly redundant because one does not have to rely on a valve shutdown to preserve gas but I would not want to dive any valve system I couldn't actually manipulate (mainly due to the off chance of doing an entry with the valves turned off and not being able to turn them on before drowning).
If you are not planning on doing dives where you will be gas limited even with two cylinders then SM will give you all the advantages you are seeking.

Thanks for the pics Jon. I have a question. In all the topics I have seen re: valve down doubles they all seem to either be independant tanks or connected with a non isolating manifold. Do divers mount valve down with an isolatior valve and if so, is it hard to manipulate?

 

[AndyNZ]

However, I although I am trim, athletic, and have a low BMI, (and a low SAC rate) and have been a competitive athelete for most of my life I reach the point now in the year 2010 where I am 57 years old, have had rotator cuff surgery on my left shoulder, and simply no longer have the physical strength and flexibility that I once had.

I share your pain - same arm, same surgery.... and I have RSI in my left wrist which causes cramps whilst manipulating that valve.

Personally, I would eschew all advice that relates to moving tanks in their bands or extending the valves etc.... for now, at least.

A dozen dives in a set of twins is not that much (no offence intended), and the single biggest thing that will help you reach your valves consistently is being relaxed and not fighting against your equipment. That is something that just takes time and practice. The more you do this, the easier you will find it. There comes a point where you've done enough dives in the twin tanks that they feel part of you, rather than something that isn't. When you get to that stage, you'll look back and wonder what the fuss was about.

Technique is also important, the positioning of your arm makes a huge difference. Touch your elbow/forearm against the side of your head whilst doing it - if you 'batwing' your elbow out, it makes the valves a lot harder to reach. What you are wearing also is a major factor, one of my drysuit undergarments is a bitch in terms of reducing flexibility and the other has no impact at all.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm surpised nobody's mentioned Cameron Martz's wonderful book "Fitness for Divers" yet ...

This article provides some particularly helpful exercises ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)