Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[karstdvr]

students to sign up for their classes was to make it abundantly clear that they would get a good grade without much effort.

Good point!
There is another problem is how instructors are made. Just as we are seeing sidemount instructors teaching classes when the previous weekend they bought equipment and spend time with a course director,but no real experience,I think cave diving has similar problems. The paradigm was intern with a couple instructors and then attend an institute with multiple instructors that has peer review,before being signed off on. Now some agencies only require 1 on 1 with an instructor-trainer.

 

[tomfcrist]

Sadly it's true. One instructor who has an exceptionally well known name in cave diving puts out some of the ****tiest divers I've ever seen. People that can't do simple kicks. Apparently so many of this instructors former students have seen the decline that they've discussed an "intervention" before this instructor sullied their name beyond repair. Sadly much of the damage is already done, and it doesn't appear likely the former students will actually grow the balls needed to intervene.

Who is this said instructor. I can understand trying to discretely call someone out, but in this case especially considering the evidently massive problem it creates, why not just be blunt and name the chump. It may save some poor schmuck from choosing this guy just because of his notoriety and getting less than they expected to get from a class.

 

[karstdvr]

Who is this said instructor. I can understand trying to discretely call someone out, but in this case especially considering the evidently massive problem it creates, why not just be blunt and name the chump. It may save some poor schmuck from choosing this guy just because of his notoriety and getting less than they expected to get from a class.

I am not a fan of outing or public shame,but skills learned in cave diving are for life support. Skills not performed correctly can result in a fatality.

 

[Superlyte27]

Who is this said instructor. I can understand trying to discretely call someone out, but in this case especially considering the evidently massive problem it creates, why not just be blunt and name the chump. It may save some poor schmuck from choosing this guy just because of his notoriety and getting less than they expected to get from a class.

Trust me, this has no affect other than drama. It fixes almost nothing. Ask me how I know.

 

[tomfcrist]

Trust me, this has no affect other than drama. It fixes almost nothing. Ask me how I know.

How do you know?

 

[karstdvr]

How do you know?

Without resurrecting the dead, I think it is well documented on CDF

 

[scuba127]

I am not cave certified. I am thinking about it though so my perspective is one of a possible future student. I've got no problem being held to high standards....even to the degree that I would be willing to take the course twice if necessary. This said, I also have no problem holding instructors to high standards which means the instruction should be more than learn the skills at home station from some mentor and then come down here and display them to me within a set time frame whereupon I collect your hard earned money and moves on. It should also mean that if the course is scheduled for 2 days, for example, the instructor should be willing to go beyond that two days to ensure the student meets the standard without further instruction cost to the student (less gasses or equipment rental of course). My tec instructor, from which I have taken one class, told me he would work with a student as long as necessary for them to get it unless it got to a point where its clear a student just isn't going to get it. I reference the comment "students are still learning in a cave (the inference being this is not acceptable)" as an example. My rec instructors has never taught me how to frog kick yet I'm expected to show up knowing how to frog kick?

 

[LiteHedded]

I am not cave certified. I am thinking about it though so my perspective is one of a possible future student. I've got no problem being held to high standards....even to the degree that I would be willing to take the course twice if necessary. This said, I also have no problem holding instructors to high standards which means the instruction should be more than learn the skills at home station from some mentor and then come down here and display them to me within a set time frame whereupon I collect your hard earned money and moves on. It should also mean that if the course is scheduled for 2 days, for example, the instructor should be willing to go beyond that two days to ensure the student meets the standard without further instruction cost to the student (less gasses or equipment rental of course). My tec instructor, from which I have taken one class, told me he would work with a student as long as necessary for them to get it unless it got to a point where its clear a student just isn't going to get it. I reference the comment "students are still learning in a cave (the inference being this is not acceptable)" as an example. My rec instructors has never taught me how to frog kick yet I'm expected to show up knowing how to frog kick?

there are classes you can take before cave training that will teach you non-silting propulsion techniques. with some agencies it is required that you pass these first

 

[tomfcrist]

Without resurrecting the dead, I think it is well documented on CDF

Useless info without a link.

 

[kensuf]

I do fault the divers. Basic instruction is the license to learn beyond your basic skill set. I found from a survey I conducted and published in UWS that most people didn't receive adequate or minimum cave conservation training,but learning beyond the entry level is their responsibility. Cave divers need to take personal responsibility and quit blaming instructors/agencies for all their deficits. If your buoyancy and trim skills are inadequate and you are in a small passage,the whole dive you are bumping the walls/ceiling and stirring up silt, personal responsibility means you don't have the skill set to be there, and exit. Where yes I agree with your comment that there are deficits in training,since there are deficits in how instructors are made with some agencies,but cave divers can't continue to lay blame for all their failures on this alone,but accept personal responsibility, and work to improve.

---------- Post added February 27th, 2015 at 06:40 AM ----------



I think the point of not knowing they are doing that is wrong is fairly short lived,because there is enough pervasive discussion and videos out there to give a person a general idea of how to do it right,now comes the, "don't care". The don't care is going to cost you and me access,because I know I sound like Chicken Little, and "the sky is falling...", the largest land owner of caves DOES CARE, DOES ASK, and the solution is something NOBODY will like.

A lot of divers get certified in 3 day (or less) "wonder" courses these days. They don't know what they don't know.

Think I'm kidding? One of the most prolific instructors in Alachua County (home to High Springs) only teaches a course with two days of water-time (pool session on Saturday AM, check-out dive #1 and 2 in the PM, check-out dives #3 and 4 on Sunday). These people have wound up in my advanced classes at UF (and private), and there's a lot of time we need to spend remediating them.