Certifying experience/ability of a diver when booking a dive

[blackwhiteroyalairforce]

Hi all,
I am analyizing the workflow of the booking process for diving centers for a project I am working on.
Asking that because I have 0 experience (an ear that didn't wanted to compensate kept me out of the diving world up to now). Probably if I would have completed even a single dive I would have the answer already.

Let's assume that a diving center accepts booking remotely (through phone, email, internet platforms, homing pidgeons, whispering during sleep...).
Assume that said diving center offers dives which are fairly complex in nature, like wrecks, +30m depths, oxygen enriched and mixes.
How does it ensure that the booking divers are capable? I have established that the logbook is inaccurate and unreliable for that purpose.
Are the certifications checked? How? Is there an online platform of sort? And even if...is that enough?
What happens if, at the diving site, a properly certified diver proves to be less competent than expected (even if properly certified, maybe because of accumulated rust in bone joints)?

Thanks for your time and experience!

 

[MargaritaMike]

Great question(s). I'm anxious to see what the answers will be. I know some of the answers, but will defer to Instructors and LDSs.

Cheers - M²

 

[TMHeimer]

My experience is the answers to your questions vary at least a little in the shops I have frequented. But generally, they check your cert. card and ask when you last dived. These shops are in the U.S. I can't comment on the shop here in Canada because I was cert. and worked there, so they knew me from day 1. I have heard that some places in the tropics do a "checkout" dive so they see what you can/can't do.

 

[sigxbill]

this is an interesting question, because it relates to other strings on this board - such as 'it is the instructor not the agency.' It has been my experience that the answer to your question, "How does it (the operator) ensure that the booking divers are capable?" is all over the place.

First, it depends on who's charter / event / it is - is the boat or operator owner offering the event directly? Or is a charter master / reseller offering the event? Charter masters / resellers tend to be more restrictive, but either way, for the most part there is really no really good way to verify a diver's ability to safely conduct any particular advanced dive. This is because it is well known that many agency's certs aren't worth the plastic they are printed on. Oh sure - some instructors teach respectable classes, but since others teach sub-par for the same agency, or just sell the card, it cheapens the trust in that agency's certifications. Some operators are willing, but require check out dives prior to the big dive, to verify ability. They only brands of cards that this board generally agree are earned, and rightfully represent that the diver is capable of diving at the stated level, are those from GUE and UTD. And while this board generally agrees this, if the operator is unfamiliar with these smaller brands, it won't matter to them. If it is a GUE or UTD event, then stated cert levels are usually accepted and dive is planned without the need for check out dives.

The problem that I have run into is trying to get an operator to take me on an advanced dive, and then convincing them I am qualified - even though I present appropriate certs. Some operators take anyone who wants to go to advanced locations, while others avoid advanced locations altogether. Just about all operators check certifications, but it's unusual that anything above owd is required, and rarer still that aow or higher is required. The only operators that are fairly consistent are those offering cave, but even in cave it is hard to find a guide to plan an advanced dive based on card alone - they often want to do check out dives first.

I would be interested if you collect similar results, or if you find other results.

-cheers

 

[blackwhiteroyalairforce]

Mmmhhh...the two answers received seems to confirm the few info I have rounded up to now.

@MargaritaMike, I'm curious to hear your answers at this point if you don't mind. Just to see if we have consensus with your opinion.

This sounds a bit inadequate, considering the increasingly higher stakes involved in more and more complex dives and the responsibility put on the buddy/instructor/divemaster in case the system should fail.
Yes, the system is kind of autoregulating (as a diver would be dumb in falsifying certs or overstating experiences just to join a dive, risking his own life)...but I have seen people doing dumber things for smaller rewards.

Anyway, I'm also against useless bureaucracy and overcomplications so if that's how it works worldwide what can I say? Memento audere semper!

 

[tomfcrist]

Most shops that I book online with have a charter and boat policy posted on their website. You can book whatever, but if an OW diver books a 200' charter, they get turned away at the dock...no refund.

A local charter has a policy of not allowing divers he doesn't know personally dive deeper than 130' without doing some recreational diving from his boat first...doesn't matter if you are Jacques Cousteau....

 

[Pkishino]

Here it depends on how the booking was made.
Walk-in to the shop -> show cert etc
Remote-booking -> due to planning we now ask for level in advance etc
But once you come to the store we ask for cert and you fill out forms etc..one of these is the risk awareness form where you acknowledge that all diving happens on your own risk and responsibility. Once you sign that form you take full responsibility for your actions.
During dive planning we clearly state that each individual must decide for themselves if they a) want to dive b) they are prepared c) have the experience..
this works well so far and there has only been one incident with a diver who overestimated his ability, didnt do any checks and clearly did not skip the dive when asked if they were ok (overweight, high breathing rate, forgot weight belt initially, got narced and bolted to surface..).
If I as a guide notice problems with divers underwater I will approach and check and if necessary help, but people diving with us know that we are only facilitators, we provide the boat, equipment and the sites..but no hand holding or such.. We go through the site during briefing, I jump in first and descend to check that the anchor isn't too far away (in which case I lay a line from our strobe (5m above anchor) to the wreck, this is also clearly described) and then I stay at the end until people descend. Depending on time/visibility etc I might stick around at the line as long as I can in case anyone wants to go up earlier etc etc or I have a swim around before I head up.

 

[northernone]

For basic dives it's self regulating. A website will state it's prerequisites and terms, I read and evaluate if I'm up to it. Similar to test driving a car I can't afford or don't have the skills to drive.

On technical dives, mix, cave etc. You'll likely get the personal interaction with someone who will confirm your experience and required certifications prior to the dive.

The hard and strong check is just prior to the dive, the liability wavier and the boat captain /dive shop staff. If you don't have the proof of training necessary they stated online you won't be diving because they won't risk the liability. That's your responsibility as an adult. Don't buy the wrong size shoes, dress yourself, and read the entry requirements to the ride.

Money talks. I can hire a guide to take me up everest no matter if I don't have the ability. Provided the one helping me do these things won't be inconvenienced by my death there's not much policing going on.

Forging documents to get what we want is possible in most areas of life. Those who do so to dive I hope are in the mandatory and don't spoil it for the rest of us. Sign up, pay up, show up and don't * up. It's a recreational hobby not the navy seals.

If someone can't do the dive they planned to do, they don't do it. Personal responsibility and accountability comes back to bite them if they overestimated their ability. If I can't walk 10 miles and I sign up for a 10 mile hike so be it, I can stay in the bus.

Curious about your project, perhaps we can better help if we know the intended end.

All in all, I would not want a stronger policing of dive abilities, that simply reduces further personal responsibility and makes the industry more dangerous for all of us.

Regards,
Cameron

 

[chrisch]

Most boats in UK will accept a booking and do not require sight of or details of certification. Dive centres might be a bit more concerned - some are, some not.

 

[blackwhiteroyalairforce]

The thing that somewhat puzzles me is how an accident in this environment (not necessarily serious to the extreme) could possibly ruin the day for instructor/divemaster and other divers.
Take Pkishino example: "narced and bolted to surface" is all laughs and good memories only up to a certain depth; the laughs muffles quickly after that point. Even the bother of administering oxygen or coordinating rescues and more advanced care from the middle of the sea just because a guy has been careless is guaranteed to ruin the day to n+2 people (minimum of a rescuer and the rescued).

The latest answers (Tom, Pkishino, Cameron) clarify where the onus lies in these circumstances and underline the strong need of clear and firm terms and conditions and waivers, but points that most of the actual process is self regulated.

Again, I am not against self regulations and do not like the common occurrence of the few bad apples spoiling the entire basket for everybody.
I agree with Cameron and Pkishino that "hand-holding" should not be extended to this activity (and any other activity involving post-kindergarten age individuals), as it may even have the adverse effect of making divers even less responsible and less able to use their brain and more reliant on papers and regulations.

Actually I believe that this could be a textbook example of natural selection at its finest. The only problem being that here the risk of damaging others is significant and that, in the end, there will always be somebody (often instructor/divemaster) that will have to take the responsibility to save the day.

Anyway, that pretty much set my intended course for this project.

About it, to answer to Cameron:
I MIGHT (do not know yet, my ear will tell) be able to finally start getting my certifications and start diving. Devoured the PADI OWD book in less than a day.
I have quite a bit of experience in dealing with software dev and web facing solutions.
Merged the two things and was trying to establish a flowchart for a solid and "safe" booking system and integrated system that would be easy to adopt and stick to (for Diving centers and divers).
No plan to offer it commercially right now (do not think that there will be a big enough demand); mostly doing it out of interest and because it may help a friend that has a diving center in Italy (with non-existing web platform).


Thanks to all the people who took the time to answer. I would be happy to see if somebody takes a somewhat divergent approach, but I believe that the process already outlined here is likely the only practically viable.