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Cmas 4 *

Discussion in 'CMAS AMERICAS' started by Dave1w, Dec 6, 2009.

  1. Satyre

    Satyre Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Paris, France
    Hello CMAS One

    Can we expect any answer here ?

  2. DCBC

    DCBC Banned

    I would be very interested in hearing what specific experience you are basing your statements upon. I am a past PADI instructor and CMAS *** instructor and totally disagree with you.
    Wingy likes this.
  3. Satyre

    Satyre Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Paris, France
    Sorry as English is not my native language, I may have done a linguistic mistake.
    What I meant here was:
    CMAS is nowhere above PADI and PADI is nowhere above CMAS.

    These systems are differents and it is like comparing carrots and oranges. Thus the aim is to train safe divers that have fun underwater.
    I see (personnal view) PADI has open to a wide number of people the possibility to scuba dive. Scuba diving is presented as a recreative activity.
    CMAS is a selective and scuba diving is more seen as a sport with physical challenge and regular training.
    Many divers would not have been diving if only CMAS was around (too old, too overweighted, etc.) .
    However the proof that the systems are not opposite is that a diver trained in one of the agency (PADI, CMAS) can continue his/her education in the other one. And actually will learn and benefit from this cross view.
    At the end of the day, a good diver is a good diver and a poor diver is a poor diver. Both training will insist on your buoyancy, a little bit on your trim and on your finning (CMAS insist a lot on finning) techniques to have divers respectfull for their environnement and practising in a safe way their love for the Underwater world.

    Now that this is said, I would love to hear your point of view.
  4. DCBC

    DCBC Banned

    PADI has lowered the training requirements; which has allowed diving to become more main-stream. This has strengthened the diving industry. At the same time, it has contributed to divers being more dependent on DMs/instructors & has resulted in a lowering of diver competence (particularly in beginner in-water skills and knowledge). PADI training has been focused on the LDS.

    CMAS on the other hand has maintained what many believe to be a dinosaur approach to diving education. Their standards generally require a higher degree of stamina and ability and the certification process is longer. CMAS has largely maintained a dive club focused approach.
  5. Satyre

    Satyre Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Paris, France
    Call me stupid but once again I am new in the industry.
    Could you please specify how (in wich ways) PADI has lowered the training requirements.

    Additional question is why is t such a bad thing that diving has becomen more main-stream?

    Then a couple of comments:
    All my instructors so far from OWD to OWSI have put the emphasis on the fact that becoming a certified diver, was like getting a driver licence. Does not mean that you are a formula 1 race pilot but you are allow to be on the road and gain experience, grow expertise. When it comes to diving, you have dive professionals that can assist you and bring value added to your dives . Is that bad?
    I will not certify a diver that I am nit confident in, and most of my instructors would not. In fact, my AOWD instructor held my certification (since my IDC, I know this was not standard) until I logged 5 more dives as he was not happy with my buoyancy at the time. Ever since, people with whom I have dived never complained... and some are on the board.

    I agree that CMAS would require *generally* more stamina but what is the most important the stamina or the skills? Once you have master the basic skills and when you enjoy your diving getting the stamina for more advanced stuff is possible (and even easier), isn't it?
    An example: a beginner PADI diver may be scared by currents whereas a CMAS diver may not be as he had been practicing swimmimg intensively. In the event of a dive trip in Coco Islands or Maldives, don't you think that an intelligent diver (PADI, SSI, CMAS, ...) would go to the gym and the swimmimg pool to be in a good shape and get the best ?
    So I would say that the system is not better but the training philosophy differs. The final goals remain the same : Train good and safe divers.
    And a last thing, longer doesn't mean better. It use to be longer to build a russian Trabant car rather that a Ford car. I will go with the Ford if choice is given :D
  6. DCBC

    DCBC Banned

    To be clear, my intent is to honestly answer your question and not demean any certification agency. My comments however are factual and historically correct. I was certified in 1965 and became an instructor in 1971. When I started teaching, the minimum training requirements were listed in hours. At the time, CMAS required 42 hours and PADI 27. The differences are obvious, as is any comparison with the training requirements today. One example is that with PADI you can be an non-swimmer and become a certified diver (close inspection of the standards will reveal that there is no mandatory "swimming" requirement). This is not the case with other agencies including CMAS.

    I have not said that diving becoming more mainstream is necessarily a bad thing. It's largely a matter of perspective. The industry is stronger; there are more dive shops and filling stations available. The larger market warrants development of diving equipment, a greater variety of products and diving resorts which benefit many. I believe that PADI is largely responsible for this advancement. On the other hand, today's diver is not as prepared as s/he once was.

    I would suggest that it is ill advised to give someone a driver's license and tell them that they will have to come back and take additional training to cover material such as what to do when you see a red traffic signal. IMO too much has been omitted from the PADI program that a certified diver should know before they can safely be depended upon to perform the duties of a buddy (such as an underwater rescue/recovery which is included in all other training programs) and the ability to dive unsupervised. Much of this will also depend upon where that person will be diving. There's a big difference in diving in vacation land and in my local area (Canadian North Atlantic).

    I cannot comment on your experience. I can say however that a PADI instructor cannot withhold certification to anyone that has met minimum standards without themselves breaching same. This is one large difference between PADI and another agency.

    Again this dependent on where you are diving. I personally haven't certified anyone whom I don't know that they possess both. They have to convince me that they are a good buddy and have the necessary knowledge and skill-sets to dive safely in the local conditions.

    As to learning, I'm still learning after 45 years and still think that I have a lot to learn. A new diver has to possess the necessary knowledge and skill-sets on day 1 that will help him survive while he's learning. To me, anything less is irresponsible.

    The diver is certified to dive in conditions the same, or better than those in-which he was certified. PADI's course is the only course that is universal. In other words, the standards a diver is held to is the same in Bonaire as it is in Greenland. The instructor must certify when the standards are met. This is not the case with any other agency. Regarding your example, the diver has to first know how to swim. This should be required by all agencies.

    Yes the philosophy is tremendously different (see the training philosophy thread). What is "better" depends upon perspective. I agree that all training agencies want to train safe divers and make money. Some agencies give a higher priority to making money. That does not mean that these same agencies aren't interested in training safe divers, they just want to deliver the absolute minimum to maximize profits.

    I don't know how you are as an instructor, but I will bet that if you doubled the amount of training time you spent on a student, the result would be a more competent diver. If this wasn't the case, you're in the wrong line of work. :wink:
    icon likes this.
  7. Standingbear56

    Standingbear56 Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Somewhere Underwater in Upstate New York
    PADI has made scuba mainstream, whereas before it was an "Only the strongest survive" training mentality. This is a good thing. However when training is based on a business model - ie more students = more profit, then training by the very nature of the model must be as streamlined as much as possible, which can be a bad thing. CMAS training is based on Quality, whereas as PADI is based on Profit. I do not mean to imply that PADI courses are dangerous, but extra training and practice time generally leads to more competent students, and CMAS is about training 100 qualified students where PADI is about training 1000 students in the the same period of time.
    Take care,
  8. Dave1w

    Dave1w Instructor, Scuba

    Well, from my initial thoughts, looking at the course standards on the website, it alomost looks like the PADI (etc) diver grade descriptions have just been overlaid on the CMAS Star System. "This is the highest non-instructor level available. The Three Star Diver is fully trained to lead and guide divers in open water experiences, to assist Instructors in classes and work on dive boats and at dive resorts. " - Sounds just like the PADI Dive Master

    "The four star diver is a diver who has reached the level of Three Star Diver and has chosen to continue on into an assisting level of Instruction. A four star diver is qualified to teach Skin Diving/Snorkeling Skills to student divers as well as lead and guide divers independently of an Instructor." Sounds just like an AI...

    I think most of the (club based / non-profit) federations that have 3 and 4 star have a totally different view of what these grades are, not a dive guide, and an Assistant instructor. Seems a bit dumbed down, and just overlaying a PADI (ish) grade system over the 1 - 4 star system .
  9. Jim Lapenta

    Jim Lapenta Dive Shop

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Canonsburg, Pa
    Just as a point of infromation:

    Scuba Educators International, Inc has completed an agreement with Underwater Society of America
    regarding CMAS certifications. Effectively immediately, we will begin issuing CMAS diver and leader
    certifications. The cards are purchased by USOA from CMAS and the front side will show the
    international CMAS logo, the diver or leader level and a hologram. The back side of the cards will be
    printed at the SEI Diving office and will show both SEI Diving and USOA logos in addition to the diver or
    leader information similar to our current cards.
    Underwater Society of America holds a seat on the Technical Committee of CMAS international and
    therefore SEI Diving will become the training arm for USOA. To be sure both our instructors, SEI Diving,
    and USOA is covered by liability insurance, each instructor MUST list “Underwater Society of America”
    as an additional insured on their insurance. We must have that certificate in our file before we can issue
    cards. Diver levels do not expire but instructor levels will expire in five years from date of issue as long
    as the instructor maintains insurance and is current with SEI Diving.
    Here are the equivalent levels:
    CMAS SEI Diving
    1 Star Diver Open Water Diver (age 15+)
    2 Star Diver Advanced OW (age 15+ w/ 20 logged dives)
    3 Star Diver Advanced Plus Diver (age 16+ w/ 50 logged dives)
    4 Star Diver Master Diver + DRAM Rescue Diver + 100 logged dives
    CMAS SEI Diving
    1 Star Instructor Divemaster (age 18+ w/40 logged dives)
    2 Star Instructor Instructor (age 19+ w/ 100 logged dives)
    3 Star Instructor Instructor Trainer (age 21+ w/ 200 logged dives)

    Currently the SEI OW diver is between CMAS * &**. Due to the number of dives required (20 logged). The AOW I train who has the required number could be issued a CMAS ** if they wanted one because of the minimum number of dives I require to start AOW along with OW checkouts and AOW checkouts guarantees a min of 20 dives by the time they are finished. Didn't intend it that way but glad it works out.
  10. Edward3c

    Edward3c Instructor, Scuba

    In Europe CMAS has had its day. The EU in its wisdom have decreed that diving organisations must be accredited European Underwater Federation (EUF) to be recognised in the EU.



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