Cold and unhappy...

[buddhasummer]

Sorry you're having so many challenges.

I'll go back to my original recommendations for thermal protection

A word or two about underwear? | Doppler's Tech Diving Blog

Thermal Undersuit | Diving Undersuits | Point Below Base | Layering | Baselayer

Thanks Steve, I thought more than once that I might have been better off with an O'Three. I've been offered a pretty good deal on a BZ400 heated full suit. I'll likely go that route as without added heat it might be ok for most of my diving given it's additional bulk over my BZ200 and I can turn the heat on if I get too cold. This has all been an expensive experiment. When people suggest buying a cheap second hand DS to begin with I think it's sound advice. Like buying first set of diving gear, you don't know what you don't know and so often, well I did anyway, end up changing everything. Looks like DS diving is no different. I didn't think the quest for warmth was going to be such an expensive one, heading into the $5000 territory.

 

[eelnoraa]

I have tried BZ400, DUI 400 ultra, Halo and Thermal fusion. I kind of feel that BZ400, DUI400 ultra and Halo are about the same warm. If I have to choose, I think DUI400 ultra is probably the warmmest, but it is also the most (ridculously) bulky and worst cut. They are all noticeably warmer than Thermal Fusion. I kind of think TF is about as warm as my DUI250g thinsulate, which should be similar to BZ200

 

[ajduplessis]

Try running more air/argon in the suit.

 

[buddhasummer]

I have tried BZ400, DUI 400 ultra, Halo and Thermal fusion. I kind of feel that BZ400, DUI400 ultra and Halo are about the same warm. If I have to choose, I think DUI400 ultra is probably the warmmest, but it is also the most (ridculously) bulky and worst cut. They are all noticeably warmer than Thermal Fusion. I kind of think TF is about as warm as my DUI250g thinsulate, which should be similar to BZ200

It's funny you say that, Pullmyfinger said the same thing about the TF. I'll give the BZ400 heated suit a go and if I can't get warm wearing that in 13degree water I never will.

---------- Post added March 17th, 2014 at 07:47 AM ----------

Try running more air/argon in the suit.

Last dive I added and extra 2kgs and spent the dive with more air in my suit, didn't seem to make much difference. Was of course warmer than just using enough air to take off the squeeze but not enough to make post 40mins any more comfortable. I'm still waiting on a correctly fitting hood and am hoping that will make a big difference. After moving from a BZ00 and heated vest up to a full heated BZ400 (probably) not sure there is anywhere else to go save a buying new neoprene suit. I'm a little shocked given water temps here aren't that cold relatively speaking, 13 has been lowest.

 

[Michael Gerhartz]

If I may add my 2 cents here: If you go with the heated BZ400, you might as well have a look at the complete package deal and think about the heated gloves as well. Their plugs just connect to the cables coming from the wrist of the BZ400 heated system. With the suit providing you a temperature of 40-42 celsius and the gloves heating up to 45 celsius, this should provide you with some heat. Make sure that you specify which type of inflator valve you have. The thermovalve only fits the Apeks valve port, but we do offer Suit connector for both SI Tech and Apeks valves. As for your feet, you can find heated soles that can help as well. You can pm me if you have any more specific questions.

 

[buddhasummer]

If I may add my 2 cents here: If you go with the heated BZ400, you might as well have a look at the complete package deal and think about the heated gloves as well. Their plugs just connect to the cables coming from the wrist of the BZ400 heated system. With the suit providing you a temperature of 40-42 celsius and the gloves heating up to 45 celsius, this should provide you with some heat. Make sure that you specify which type of inflator valve you have. The thermovalve only fits the Apeks valve port, but we do offer Suit connector for both SI Tech and Apeks valves. As for your feet, you can find heated soles that can help as well. You can pm me if you have any more specific questions.

Cheers Michael, I'll PM you.

 

[TSandM]

First off, a 60 minute dive in 56 degree water in any exposure protection I know about is going to end with you being happy to get out of the water. I don't know of ANY setup that will let you enjoy what I consider the ideal, which is to get out of the water feeling as warm and comfortable as you did when you went in. 56 is at the high end of Puget Sound temperatures -- I will tell you that every single boat dive I've ever done, people get out of the water, no matter WHAT they are wearing, ready to get inside the warm cabin and drink some hot cocoa. So your expectations MAY be too high.

It sounds as though you have covered my step one of being warm, which is to avoid the loss of thermal units prior to entering the water.

In the water, how much air do you have in your BC? If you are diving a single tank of 100 cf or smaller, you should be weighted so that you can put all your buoyancy gas in your suit. Compression of undergarment insulation seriously impacts its efficacy. My gauge is that I should be able to run all my gas in the suit, and if it starts to bubble out of the valve, I'm overweighted You want maximum loft of the UG -- air beyond that just makes the suit hard to handle.

A good hood cannot be overvalued. It should be thick and fit well. It should be replaced regularly (I try to do mine every two years).

With the heated vest, don't use it for the first half of the dive. Turn it on when you are starting to feel cold. The decompression implications of torso heat are truly cautionary. I also find that mentally, it works better to get a little cold and then enjoy the warmth, than to use the vest from the beginning and experience an unbroken decline in comfort.

You really should be able to solve this. I regularly do 60 minute dives here in the summer, in water in the mid 50's. I'm cold at the end and ready to warm up, but an hour later, I can do a second dive. If I can do it (and if my much skinnier, younger friends can) you can, too.

 

[buddhasummer]

First off, a 60 minute dive in 56 degree water in any exposure protection I know about is going to end with you being happy to get out of the water. I don't know of ANY setup that will let you enjoy what I consider the ideal, which is to get out of the water feeling as warm and comfortable as you did when you went in. 56 is at the high end of Puget Sound temperatures -- I will tell you that every single boat dive I've ever done, people get out of the water, no matter WHAT they are wearing, ready to get inside the warm cabin and drink some hot cocoa. So your expectations MAY be too high.

It sounds as though you have covered my step one of being warm, which is to avoid the loss of thermal units prior to entering the water.

In the water, how much air do you have in your BC? If you are diving a single tank of 100 cf or smaller, you should be weighted so that you can put all your buoyancy gas in your suit. Compression of undergarment insulation seriously impacts its efficacy. My gauge is that I should be able to run all my gas in the suit, and if it starts to bubble out of the valve, I'm overweighted You want maximum loft of the UG -- air beyond that just makes the suit hard to handle.

A good hood cannot be overvalued. It should be thick and fit well. It should be replaced regularly (I try to do mine every two years).

With the heated vest, don't use it for the first half of the dive. Turn it on when you are starting to feel cold. The decompression implications of torso heat are truly cautionary. I also find that mentally, it works better to get a little cold and then enjoy the warmth, than to use the vest from the beginning and experience an unbroken decline in comfort.

You really should be able to solve this. I regularly do 60 minute dives here in the summer, in water in the mid 50's. I'm cold at the end and ready to warm up, but an hour later, I can do a second dive. If I can do it (and if my much skinnier, younger friends can) you can, too.

Thanks Lynne, yes I have wondered on more than a few occasions if my expectations may be too high. I'm trying to slow down a little before throwing more money at an ideal that may in fact be unattainable.

Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to dive with everything settled, my dives with the heated vest resulted in rather bad leaking, turns out I was sold me wrong valve for for my suit so my experience is probably not the best as far as the vest making much difference. My hood is also too big. I'm in the process of getting valve fitting issue worked out and a small hood is on its way.

I have air in my wing so the next dive I'll use all air required for buoyancy in my suit and not wing. Hopefully a non leaking suit, a hood that fits properly, more air in my suit and lowered warmth expectations will make it all more comfortable.

I incorrectly assumed that diving dry would mean diving warm. I'd hate to drop a small fortune on a heavier undergarment or full heated undergarment to discover I'm still chilly, that would bring tears to my eyes.

Perhaps I need to harden up, after all it is actually winter and I am in water.

 

[TSandM]

Warm is relative. I did 90 minute dives in the Red Sea where I got out every bit as warm as I went in -- but I was in a dry suit and the water was 85 degrees. On our recent trip to the Socorros, the water temperatures were 73 to 77, and in the cooler water, I got chilly -- not shivering cold, not nearly that, but cold enough so that I was very aware of the cold water and wishing I had a bit more insulation on me. Wearing my Puget Sound insulation in Southern California, where the temperatures were typically in the high 50's, I was pretty happy through the first dive, but by the third, I was COLD getting out.

Nothing short of aerogel is going to prevent the loss of body heat to the water. Undergarments sufficient to reduce heat loss to close to zero would be undiveable due to thickness and weight requirement. I find that I constantly juggle the desire to be warmer against my disinclination to haul around any more lead than I have to, especially since the majority of my diving is from shore and not infrequently involves a bit of walking with all my gear on. There is no perfect solution.

 

[Polari]

Always asking myself why there no trilaminate coolers?