Comparing Doppler's class and GUE's DIRf class...

[sparky30]

Dan MacKay once bubbled...


Hi Barb,

You bring up a very valid point. One thing that I have to ask however is where did you get this impression from? The only negative comments that I have heard about this course (and GUE training in general for that matter) has come from folks that have never taken a GUE course.

I can only assume that because we do have requirements that we do not bend, such as fitness, teaching only non-smokers and a DIR equimentment set up that we are ****'s all dressed in black. The fitness and non-smoking requirement should be obvious. But to tell you the truth the requirement for the right equipment is more for my benefit than yours. Proper equipment eliminates 80% of problems of bouyancy and trim when you are properly weighted and configured. Safe dives,

Dan

I have to agree with barb... I looked at the GUE courses last year.. They seemed an excellent idea, but frankly I didn't like the attitude.. I agree with the fitness and non-smoking requirements.. they make perfect sense.. what really turned me off is the equipment section.. Proper equipment is paramount, but from what I've been told GUE takes things to the extreme.. Its their way or the highway... Its this elitest attitude that really turned me off.. There may be more than one solution for proper trim and bouyancy.. In the end I went with a different training agency.. It all boils down to the instructor anyway, regardless of the certifying agency...Personally I prefer someone who doesn't think he (or the agency he works for) is God's gift to diving.. Proper finning technique and bouyancy can be tought without attitude.. and it can be fun at the same time.. and it works with all different kinds of equipment..

 

[MikeFerrara]

sparky30 once bubbled...


I have to agree with barb... I looked at the GUE courses last year.. They seemed an excellent idea, but frankly I didn't like the attitude.. I agree with the fitness and non-smoking requirements.. they make perfect sense.. what really turned me off is the equipment section.. Proper equipment is paramount, but from what I've been told GUE takes things to the extreme.. Its their way or the highway... Its this elitest attitude that really turned me off.. There may be more than one solution for proper trim and bouyancy.. In the end I went with a different training agency.. It all boils down to the instructor anyway, regardless of the certifying agency...Personally I prefer someone who doesn't think he (or the agency he works for) is God's gift to diving.. Proper finning technique and bouyancy can be tought without attitude.. and it can be fun at the same time.. and it works with all different kinds of equipment..

I don't think GUE teaches a bad attitude. I think the attitude comes from nebies/wanna-bes who haven't ever seen a good diver til they took or seen the results of a DIRF.

I can see how they get this impression though. You often hear how every one in a DIRF is equally bad regardless of experience. From what I saw in the portion of a DIRF that I watched that's true. I think the newest diver in that class had been diving a couple of years and some for as long as 20 years. But...if they'd have wondered over to where my OW class was going on they would have seen something different.

The norm is pretty bad. If that's all one sees prior to their DIR/GUE exposure they will get the idea that GUE are the only ones who can dive.

 

[pufferfish]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I don't think GUE teaches a bad attitude. I think the attitude comes from nebies/wanna-bes who haven't ever seen a good diver til they took or seen the results of a DIRF.

I can see how they get this impression though. You often hear how every one in a DIRF is equally bad regardless of experience. From what I saw in the portion of a DIRF that I watched that's true. I think the newest diver in that class had been diving a couple of years and some for as long as 20 years. But...if they'd have wondered over to where my OW class was going on they would have seen something different.

The norm is pretty bad. If that's all one sees prior to their DIR/GUE exposure they will get the idea that GUE are the only ones who can dive.

Mike I think you are probably right. I have oftened wondered where does the 'attitude' reflected in so many of the posts by past GUE students on this forum come from? And before I get flamed for saying this lets just say there are many others than only myself on this thread who have reached the same conclusion rightly or wrongly about the GUE teaching methods. What is confusing is I have met Dan and spoken to him about the course and certainly did not get the impressions one gets from reading the posts from his students on this board. In fact it was quite the opposite as I left thinking I'd like to take his course. Then I got back on the board and was turned off again by the attitude.

I don't have the answer, but where does the attitude of 'my way of the highway' come from? Does the program selectively attract this type of personality in the first place or does it take a 'blank slate' and inculcate the attitude during the course? As you said Mike maybe it takes folks with such poor skills to begin with and who have no other reference point for comparison who then come out the other end with the rah, rah, GUE is the only way dogma. There are lots of excellent divers out there who have never taken a GUE course and like you said JJ was a good diver long before GUE came along. I do not profess to have any of these answers but being a curious mind I would like to throw these questions out for discussion. Probably would be good though for GUE to look at this as if they want to attract folks with good skills, but who realize they can always improve, they will need to soften the attitude in their graduates. Not soften standards which I have no problem with even the whole pass/fail notion just soften the message of exclusivity their grads carry out into the real world and post on this board.

 

[Col.Cluster]

Doppler,

Sorry for sitting out of this one for so long. I did not realize I had no data jack at the hotel I was staying at, until I was booked in for the weekend. I did bring up fitness requirements and as shown in this thread, you are still teaching smokers. The health and cardio implications of this (as stated by MacKay) should be obvious. There is a detailed report in the Quest archives concerning the issue.

I am not sure where all ‘the attitude’ is from the team players in this thread. The attitude started with eagleray, DS1 and Pufferfish followed by Bubble Boy and sparky. The Ripper just stood his ground and looked after the team. If you find the attitude that distasteful then you should refrain from dishing it out. It looks to me that you start into the bs attitude because you really like the abuse you receive in return.

As far as the valve management comment: We seen an instructor in Rockport ( at Eric’s Dock) on the Easter Weekend teaching a pseudo fundamentals that could not manage a freeflow and a valve shut down. It appeared that they had too much underwear on and restricted the movement of their arms. It was ridiculous. DIR is a complete system that works. When you detract from or modify one part of it, you encumber something else. This inevitably exposes the entire team to an unnecessary heightened level of risk. This was a prime example of people selling skills that were/are obviously lacking.

 

[Col.Cluster]

Pufferfish,
It is good to see you are still posting your standard bs. Keep up the good work. I do not know were you get that JP is on board with you. You have yet to post the Ministry of Labours regulation number regarding air standards and recreational scuba shops. We are still waiting for you to present your case critically and candidly.

 

[Tom R]

If you aren't lonely: You aren't at the top

It's lonely at the bottom too dude

 

[Col.Cluster]

It always looks crowded down there from here.

 

[Dan MacKay]

pufferfish once bubbled...


Mike I think you are probably right. I have oftened wondered where does the 'attitude' reflected in so many of the posts by past GUE students on this forum come from? And before I get flamed for saying this lets just say there are many others than only myself on this thread who have reached the same conclusion rightly or wrongly about the GUE teaching methods. What is confusing is I have met Dan and spoken to him about the course and certainly did not get the impressions one gets from reading the posts from his students on this board. In fact it was quite the opposite as I left thinking I'd like to take his course. Then I got back on the board and was turned off again by the attitude.

I am responding to Pufferfish's post but in reality there is a common thread here. As it you stated Puffer and a few others as well that if the OW instructors were doing their job I would be out of one at least at the fundamentals level. I coud not agree more. I hate painting with a broad brush but I think you and Doppler will agree with me that an unhealthy portion of OW instructors do not possess these Fundamentals skills themselves let alone have the ability to pass them on. You can't teach what you don't know.

The comment you made about all Fundamentals students bing equal is not far off the mark although there are some exeptions to the rule. Occasionally someone comes alone and surprises you. I have had more than a few tech divers come and take the course. Some pass, some do not but they all leave with something different. The less experienced divers leave with basic things to work on, while the more experienced leave with more advanced things to think about. I actually had a young lad of 18 with 35 or 40 dives come on a Fundamentals last week, jump into a set of doubles (for the first time I might add) and at his level do what I might consider ace the course. I have had divers with hundreds of dives in doubles fail miserably. Go figure.

As for the riot over the gear. I can really say no more than I did to Barb. While taking a Fundamentals course a DIR set up eliminates 80% of the problems I encounter with buoyancy and trim. That way I can concentrate 100% of my energy on the other 20% of what is most imortant in my estimation to the student - skill development. In the bad old days when we allowed students to wear what ever they wanted (as long at it was safe) it was a mess. Most Fundamentals turned into a 2 1/2 day gear configuration seminar with very little in the way of student progress being made.

Safe dives,

Dan

 

[barb]

.... but you seem quite upset about something.

You did, however, mention something that raises a question in my mind... regarding smoking and taking a DIRF course.
Are you suggesting that if someone smokes they would not be admitted to a GUE course?
If this is the case: it implies that a person that smokes is either unable to learn better diving skills or worse still does'nt have the right to.
I don't smoke so am not looking out for my own interests. I also believe smoking is unhealthy but I don't see that this should prevent someone from the opportunity to learn better diving skills. That would be a human rights issue I think.

Please don't get nastey - this was originally a Thank You thread and therefore intended to be positive!!!

Barb

 

[Kevin R]

Being a non-smoker is clearly laid out in the GUE course standards under "general prerequesites for all GUE courses".

It has absolutely nothing to do with a students ability to learn, but points towards a general level of health and fitness. In diving, especially at the technical level, gas perfusion is everything and a thick coating of tar over the aveoli does nothing to promote gas transfer. If the individual is able to kick the habit, he/she is more than welcome to attend the course. This is only one of many groups starting to insist on non smoking candidates on thier courses. For example, the US military now has a non-smoking policy for all of its candidates for the exact same reasons (fitness, not gas transfer).

GUE divers are generally very aware of their fitness levels and strive to lower breathing rates through good fitness and nutrition. I am not saying that no other agencies divers are interested in fitness, just that GUE has gone that extra step and incorporated it into the training regimen. This does not mean that you have to run marathons to dive with the teams, but you should be able to carry your tanks without having to stop for a smoke on the way to the boat.

Kevin