Computers that don't lock out tangent.

[Diving Dubai]

You appear to be very pro lock out, I've never seen someone argue so vehemently for a lock out screen, you must work for Suunto.

You did not however address my point, that the purpose of a computer is to assist you. Even if a diver makes a mistake the computer should not take its ball and go home, it should continue to assist you in minimizing worst possible effects u til you surface.

No I don't work for Suunto, and I'm not arguing for anything - I just don't see a problem with it. No need to be insulting

You did not however address my point, that the purpose of a computer is to assist you. Even if a diver makes a mistake the computer should not take its ball and go home

Mistake is that it? Going into deco by accident is right up there with OOA. Inexcusable

All computers will, get you to the surface and will not lock out if you follow them.

If you ignore your computer and decide to do your own thing then it will punish you at the end of the dive.

There's a fair amount of divers who don't understand the basics of their computers, many have been confused when they see their "NDL" time increase rather than decrease (because its in deco) so what do they do? they continue a dive, just follow their depth gauge (because their comp is acting weird) make a standard stop and get out. If the computer didn't lock them out they'd probably jump back in the water

Unfortunately computer manufacturers have to play to the lowest common denominator - and in diving that bar can be set quite low for the vast majority

Once again, for the last time I'll repeat myself. In nearly 1000 Suunto dives I've never locked out my computer and I've done some stuff that wasn't best practice.

You really do have to work quite hard to lock out a computer, its just that some people have perfected this art

 

[dmaziuk]

Much better to have a computer that is tracking everything and trying to keep you safe versus one that says "tough luck, if you want to dive again I'm not going to do anything for you other than count depth and time, hope you don't die"

Oh come on, it's a Piece Of Software, it is not "trying to keep you safe", it just counts numbers. There is no part of it capable of caring whether it is attached to a diver or if that diver is bent into a hundred nazi crosses.

 

[loosenit2]

No I don't work for Suunto, and I'm not arguing for anything - I just don't see a problem with it. No need to be insulting

My apologies, what I wrote was meant as a light hearted jest....not an insult.

Mistake is that it? Going into deco by accident is right up there with OOA. Inexcusable

Perfect comparison to make my point. If a diver is OOA would you find it so inexcusable that you would not provide them air? I am asking a rhetorical question, because the answer is of course you would provide them air.

Why then is it acceptable for a computer to do the opposite? A computer locking out because of a missed deco stop is denying a diver who made a mistake any assistance to minimize the impact of that mistake. Doing this is not dissimilar from denying an OOA buddy air. Neither is ok in my book.

As an aside there are multiple reasons a diver misses a deco stop that have nothing to do with incompetence. What is a diver has a medical emergency, passes out, has a seizure, has a coronary problem and that causes them to miss a deco stop. But they then recover to some degree and try to execute the best deco plan they can to minimize the effects? The computer should be programmed to assist them in their decision making to the best of its ability.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
Perfect comparison to make my point. If a diver is OOA would you find it so inexcusable that you would not provide them air? I am asking a rhetorical question, because the answer is of course you would provide them air. . . .

Wouldn't the analogy be whether to provide them air on the next dive after the dive during which they ran out of air? Maybe you would want the diver to sit out a dive and ponder what he did wrong.

 

[loosenit2]

Wouldn't the analogy be whether to provide them air on the next dive after the dive during which they ran out of air? Maybe you would want the diver to sit out a dive and ponder what he did wrong.

Th Suunto locks out while you are still underwater, 3 min after you miss a deco stop, even if you would have had other deco stops after that one. So I think the analogy of denying someone air is a fair one.

 

[RonR]

The various commercial versions of RGBM are proprietary. The only implementation of RGBM that I'm aware of which claimed to be the full iterative version was an aftermarket upgrade for the discontinued Liquivison Xeo. VPM is more widely available, although I don't know if it's actually open source. It's available as an add-on for various Shearwaters, but they don't offer it for the Teric due to recent changes in thinking about bubble models.

The Atomic Cobalt has incorporated a fully iterative version of RGBM since it came on the market in 2010. There was also an implementation that was made a few years later for the Liquivision computer. I believe that at least some recent Suunto computers ("fused" RGBM) incorporate full RGBM and that, like the Cobalt, they move to fully iterative calculations with increasing depth.

-Ron

 

[tbone1004]

Oh come on, it's a Piece Of Software, it is not "trying to keep you safe", it just counts numbers. There is no part of it capable of caring whether it is attached to a diver or if that diver is bent into a hundred nazi crosses.

the lawyers beg to differ which is why that nonsense is implemented in there. Lockouts are there for liability and no other reason..... There is a reason companies like Shearwater don't put them in there

 

[Lorenzoid]

Th Suunto locks out while you are still underwater, 3 min after you miss a deco stop, even if you would have had other deco stops after that one. So I think the analogy of denying someone air is a fair one.

I guess you are right, and I have long mis-interpreted the following from my Suunto's manual.

Omitted decompression The Error mode results from omitted decompression, i.e. when you stay above the ceiling for more than three minutes. During this three-minute period the Er warning is shown and the audible alarm beeps. After this, the dive computer will enter a permanent Error mode. The instrument will continue to function normally if you descend below the ceiling within this three-minute period. Once in the permanent Error mode, only the Er warning is shown in the center window. The dive computer will not show times for ascent or stops. However, all the other displays will function as before to provide information for ascent. You should immediately ascend to a depth of 3 to 6 m/10 to 20 ft and remain at this depth until air supply limitations require you to surface. After surfacing, you should not dive for a minimum of 48 hours. During the permanent Error mode, the Er text will be displayed in the center window and the planning mode will be disabled.

 

[JackD342]

I guess you are right, and I have long mis-interpreted the following from my Suunto's manual.

Omitted decompression The Error mode results from omitted decompression, i.e. when you stay above the ceiling for more than three minutes. During this three-minute period the Er warning is shown and the audible alarm beeps. After this, the dive computer will enter a permanent Error mode. The instrument will continue to function normally if you descend below the ceiling within this three-minute period. Once in the permanent Error mode, only the Er warning is shown in the center window. The dive computer will not show times for ascent or stops. However, all the other displays will function as before to provide information for ascent. You should immediately ascend to a depth of 3 to 6 m/10 to 20 ft and remain at this depth until air supply limitations require you to surface. After surfacing, you should not dive for a minimum of 48 hours. During the permanent Error mode, the Er text will be displayed in the center window and the planning mode will be disabled.

So if you manage to put the computer into error mode before the dive is over, there is still a protocol for completing the dive. Unfortunately, that advice is in the owner’s manual in a paragraph that was probably never read by most everyday users, much less remembered when needed.
The Suunto DC corollary to the RDP guidance for emergency deco stops when exceeding NDL limits - a rule that you need to remember but hope never to use, so not too likely to be able to bring to mind. To be fair though, you really need to be actively ignoring your computer to exceed a ceiling for 3 minutes. Yes, an instructor dealing with some extremes of supervision is not a contingency that fits within the plan.

 

[Lorenzoid]

It seems to me that no matter what the manufacturer encourages customers to believe, a computer that locks out the diver is aimed at the recreational diving market--it isn't really meant to be used on a regular basis for multi-stop deco diving. On a dive limited to recreational depths, if the diver inadvertently puts the computer slightly into deco, it seems reasonable for the computer to assume that if the diver doesn't descend below the ceiling within 3 mins., the diver has almost certainly decided to end the dive and has no interest in stopping on the rest of the way to the surface.