Concerns about moderating policies

[boulderjohn]

Since the comment almost always comes in response to particular activities or statements I think that distinction if rarely that obvious.

You are corerct, and the difference has led to a lot of moderator debates about specific instances.

In general, if you are describing a particular PERSON, then it is a personal attack and is against the ToS. If you are describing a BEHAVIOR and not directly referencing the individual as you do, then it is OK. Specific instances can get very challenging indeed, and we all do not always agree on some resulting moderator actions.

 

[boulderjohn]

Fifth Comment:
We have had moderators in the past who overdid their reporting. I am thinking of one in particular who saw personal attacks where there were none. Of course, the moderator who sent the reports does not make the decisions, and the remaining staff is not afraid to call a spade a spade. We have frequently responded to reports by stating that we did not see anything wrong with the reported posts, and we have done that for moderators as well as non-moderators.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I am hesitant to post in this new thread, beacuse the whole thing is trivial, but.. see below for the moderator's (ealier) comments about divers being morons etc. I would think any new thread discussing this topic would need to start with the actual initial comments about "idocy" and "morons".

Without inclusion of the initial comments it is dificult to understand the context. It may also help us to understand when it is appropriate to use those terms to describe other divers in situations where grave injuries are suffered.

The occurance of a diving accident and the resulting consequence of significant injury is not often categorized as idiocy or proof that the individuals involved are morons. I don't think i would risk making those types of categorizations in reference to specific diving accidents on this forum.



I'm thinking it's likely an accidental discharge
...for which there is no excuse. Triply so if someone gets hurt by your idiocy. Because that means that you're a moron and don't know squat about safe gun handling. If you do, even an accidental a negligent discharge shouldn't bear worse consequences than a bruised ego

 

[The Chairman]

I believe this is the post in question:

...for which there is no excuse. Triply so if someone gets hurt by your idiocy. Because that means that you're a moron and don't know squat about safe gun handling. If you do, even an accidental a negligent discharge shouldn't bear worse consequences than a bruised ego

There are four rules for safely handling a gun... including a speargun.

• Treat all guns as if they are loaded.
• Never point a gun towards anything you don't want to destroy.
• Always be sure of your target and what's behind it.
• Keep your finger off of the trigger until you've sited your target and are ready to destroy it!

In addition to that list there is a special rule for spearguns

• Never, ever have a speargun on a boat with the bands engaged. Any speargun discovered in that condition should be tossed overboard with no warning to the owner. Better check twice before you hand your speargun up to a mate, because you might be chasing it.

I don't have a problem with a post that suggests that anyone who does not follow these rules is indeed a moron and they should not handle a gun. I don't understand why @dumpsterDiver or @Bennno think violating any of these rules is a good idea or why it should not be pointed out that violating these simple, albeit important rules is moronic. The first four rules have been around since before any of us were born and there should be no debate as to their implementation. The last rule has been around almost as long as I remember and I have seen it enforced twice. I think it's an awesome rule.

Calling an action moronic is not even close to calling a specific user a moron. That neither @Bennno or @dumpsterDiver gets this is apparent in that they've both been banned for not understanding the difference. Go figure, eh?

I don't think i would risk making those types of categorizations in reference to specific diving accidents on this forum.

This is not a diving "accident", it's a shooting incident that happened while diving. If a person was shot then at least one and probably more of the rules for safe handling of a gun has been violated. There is no excuse for putting others in jeopardy. If you don't know or can't follow these simple rules in or out of the water, you are being a moron.

From www.Dictionary.com

Moron
noun
1. Informal. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment:
I wonder why they elected that narrow-minded moron to Congress.

 

[redacted]

So, it is OK to suggest that someone is a moron as long has they have earned it.

 

[boulderjohn]

So, it is OK to suggest that someone is a moron as long has they have earned it.

People seem to trouble understanding the difference between
1) describing the action of a hypothetical individual who performed that hypothetical act and
2) calling a specific person, usually someone participating in the thread, a derogatory name..

 

[The Chairman]

So, it is OK to suggest that someone is a moron as long has they have earned it.

It's alright to call an action moronic.

If I were to post "awap is a moron", I would be moderated and the the sentence struck.

If I were to post "people who can't understand the difference between an action and a specific person are morons", it would be close and would be scrutinized. Is it safety related? Am I referring to a specific person or a class of people? Is there a history between us? Have I been posting rather aggressively lately and trying to sneak one by?

If I were to post "attacking others is moronic but it's OK to attack an action", then it's pretty cut and dried "OK".

Is that clear enough for you? I could try another language if you think that would help!

 

[redacted]

"I don't have a problem with a post that suggests that anyone who does not follow these rules is indeed a moron ...."

So it is not a problem until "anyone" is replaced by a specific member someone.

 

[boulderjohn]

So it is not a problem until "anyone" is replaced by a specific member someone.

Or a
anyone" that is actually a very thinly disguised individual. As Pete describes, there are cases that are clear and obvious, and there are difficult gray areas that lead to vigorous discussions among the moderators before decisions are made.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Interesting discussion. Thanks for taking the time to provide an explanation.

I'm not sure I have expressed any objection to calling certain actions moronic or idiotic, but rather surprised that it was appropriate when discussing a very specific accident. I don't know the victim in the photograph, but I guess the person who shot him is a moron.

I've personally seen only one person get shot with a speargun, but I have seen some close calls. It really is a dangerous activity.

I agree that all the rules Netdoc listed (including number 5) are valid. The person who I witnessed being shot was as the result of violating at least two of the 5 rules simultaneously.

It should be stated however, that it is not that uncommon to see experienced spearfisherman loading their guns before they enter the water and while still on the boat. It makes me nervous when I see it. There are various reasons for doing this and I am sure that Netdoc considers all of them moronic. It is primarily a situation where convenience trumps safety (in the eyes of those who do it).

I have seen a speargun misfire on a boat more than once and besides the recoil and the danger of getting hit by the pointy end of the shaft, there is another hazard. If a speargun, which has the shaft tethered to a strong line, fires in the air, the shaft can go upward or outward, reach the end of the line and then come back (from the elastic force of the line, I guess) and cause potentially fatal injuries from the butt of the shaft impaling someone. I witnessed a particularly dramatic example of the "rebounding action" on one dive boat several years ago.

Last week, an experienced spearo handed up a loaded speargun to me while in the process of handing up his catch, scooter, smb, pole spear and fins etc. It can be a lot of things for the diver to keep track of, so it is important to check for the gun being loaded before you grab it from a diver. I noticed the loaded gun immediately, I took it (being extra cautious about where it was pointed) and unloaded it for him. Since we are now talking about speargun safety, I thought it appropriate to provide a another reminder that it is always good to look at the band(s) of the gun and confirm that it is unloaded before handling it. Unfortunately, the situation is not as unusual as it should be.