True. As any diver/instructor would say leaving a student alone, especially in an overhead environment, would tell the other jurors that practice is negligent at best.
Concerns raised about agency response to student fatality
- Thread starter boulderjohn
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OP
In my one and only experience on a jury, the prosecutor was stunningly incompetent. When we were done with the trial (vehicular homicide), the judge spoke with us, and we asked about that. He agreed. One critical issue was the layout of the intersection by which the intoxicated driver entered the expressway. Understanding what that intersection looked like was the key to eliminating any consideration of the defense's alternative explanation for the accident. Why, we asked, did the prosecution not have a chart or picture to show it? The judge said he was completely baffled--it seemed like an obvious piece of evidence.
What made the difference was when the 3-4 people on the jury who knew the intersection well explained what the intersection (very bad design) looked like to the rest of the jury. In other words, the "experts" who brought brought outside knowledge to the deliberations made the difference.
What made the difference was when the 3-4 people on the jury who knew the intersection well explained what the intersection (very bad design) looked like to the rest of the jury. In other words, the "experts" who brought brought outside knowledge to the deliberations made the difference.
Jack Hammer
Contributor
KevinNM
Contributor
Realistically I think the only positive action that the agency here can take is a full disclosure of the facts and the reasoning behind their findings.
If they don't, people will still speculate about the causes and, given that there is only one set of "facts" out there, people will assume (and they are atm) those to be right (even if the reality could be completely different).
If they come out with the facts, it would help to restore trust which, to my mind anyway, is being lost. Would I trust the instructor or instructor candidate or agency for that matter on the information available at the moment! Hell no.
If they don't, people will still speculate about the causes and, given that there is only one set of "facts" out there, people will assume (and they are atm) those to be right (even if the reality could be completely different).
If they come out with the facts, it would help to restore trust which, to my mind anyway, is being lost. Would I trust the instructor or instructor candidate or agency for that matter on the information available at the moment! Hell no.
Capt Jim Wyatt
Hanging at the 10 Foot Stop
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bamafan
Contributor
Well maybe I was told wrong. I guess if the wrong person dies one of these days in a cave and the subpoenas start flying we will know the truth.
Capt Jim Wyatt
Hanging at the 10 Foot Stop
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Scuba Instructor
@bamafan There is never the right person to die in a cave.
If you are going to make further attacks on the integrity of the CDS or any other training program you should also be ready to identify the culprits. In my view you either lied about what a CDS instructor told you or the CDS instructor who told you this played you as a fool to get you all hot and bothered.
This was a serious allegation defiling the CDS training program, who no one holds out as perfect. Without you identifying the instructor who told you this you leave us without any evidence to investigate the horrendous charge and frankly leaves me, and I am sure others questioning your motives.
Either identify the instructor and the details so we can investigate or apologize to this forum and the CDS training committee for what appears now to be simply the rants of an angry man with an agenda and no supporting facts.
PS-You and I have the same big picture goal for the cave community. We should be working together & not against one another. However if you think, as you seem to that I am a blithering idiot then lets agree to disagree and move on.
bamafan
Contributor
The instructor who told me this is no longer teaching. There are issues in your agency and it mainly stems from crossovers. The industry is screwed up and what happens is the magic wand is waived at an agency such such as IANTD, PSAI or any other agency and the crossover procedure is easily done especially if the person is well known and can bring in enough business. I really don't feel like the CDS is any better than any other agency and they should get out of the teaching busines. I don't think you are an idiot but I do question your experience when you post stuff such as"there are no gold line T's in North Florida ". I am just a vacation cave diver but even I know this statement is incorrect. The CDS definitely doesn't impress me as an organization. You may not agree with this but I really don't see where the CDS is the leader in anything cave diving related.
I have no motives other than voicing my opinion. I am not an instructor of any kind. Don't want to be one and I have given up hope a long time ago on the industry ever fixing itself. If Schulte is successful in fixing the CDS I will be a supporter. Until then I refuse to have anything to do with it as it is a lost cause.
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