Contingency planning in OW training?

[Jcp2]

I guess it depends what you define as low on air. If you dive with two independent tanks and one tank runs low, I don’t think you would be low on air. You’d just switch to the other one until the sum of your tanks was low on air. Now what if that tank was carried by somebody else for you, like a dive partner/guide/Sherpa? Would you be low on air?

 

[HKGuns]

I ran into a situation when diving in India. As it turns out, the DM had no clue about PSI and I have no clue about Bar.

I indicated the turn at the agreed point and tried in vain to let him know I was low on air.

I was monitoring my air very closely and my buddy, also an American, knew my situation and was very close at all times.

I completed the 3 minute safety stop, the dive max depth was 60 feet, and walked onto the boat with only 131 PSI in the AL80.

While not an optimal situation, I knew my air status, my buddy knew my air status and was close, I didn’t panic and do something stupid, so I viewed it as a good learning experience and chalked it up to stuff happens.

I now have a brass/glass gauge that shows both PSI and Bar.

I think I made the right call in completing the safety stop.

 

[TMHeimer]

Those with a more recent handle on PADI's procedures than I have already given good input. I'll just throw out a couple of things--
Yes, PADI's wording on tests and at times in materials can be a little confusing. I'll cut them some slack in that they have a LOT of materials....
Also, I think this intentional air-sharing is one of those "real life" things that happen that are maybe not discussed in training (happens in all endeavors/jobs).
In line with this is PADI's promoting buddy diving as the only good way to dive. Solo diving is of course a different topic, with a sub forum on it. But of course if diving with a buddy and for some reason he/she doesn't want to surface when I deem it the right thing to do, I will at least consider ascending by myself. Haven't had that happen, but, another "real world" thing that probably isn't mentioned or written down in training.

 

[Blackcrusader]

In the times I have seen the DM air share it was midway through the dive before a diver was actually low on air. They would share for 10 or 15 minutes then put the diver back on their own air to finish out the dive. I have also done the reverse where a private DM/Guide grabbed a not full tank and underestimated how I would do on air. So she borrowed some of mine on a night shore dive in Greece.

Yup I have seen DM's do this. I have also done it with my son on a dive and also with other divers. I'm quite good on air and people seem to relax more once they are sharing as they are not chasing everything, not having to control buoyancy and stop wasting air mask clearing.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I ran into a situation when diving in India. As it turns out, the DM had no clue about PSI. I indicated the turn at the agreed point and tried in vain to let him know I was low on air. I was monitoring my air very closely and my buddy, also an American, knew my situation and was very close at all times.
I completed the 3 minute safety stop, the dive max depth was 60 feet, and walked onto the boat with only 131 PSI in the AL80. While not an optimal situation, I knew my air status, my buddy knew my air status and was close, I didn’t panic and do something stupid, so I viewed it as a good learning experience and chalked it up to stuff happens. I now have a brass/glass gauge that shows both PSI and Bar. I think I made the right call in completing the safety stop.

You made the right call. Actually a diver can call to end a dive at any time for any reason not just being low on air.

The only times I have been with another diver who was actually out of air was when I was diving with instructors. Although I have shared air with divers to get them to the end of the dive so they can finish the last ten minutes of the dive on their own air.

 

[shurite7]

Edit: not going to speculate. LMK when you have the actual question.

I'm not going to type the question (copy right - no agency wants people putting their test questions online. Note, I could careless whether people like or dislike the fact I refuse to type the entire question). The essence of the question is, a diver is low on air...what action(s) should be taken. Should the diver use an alternate air source, ascend at a reasonable rate, make an emergency ascent or bolt to the surface.

Nit-picking the issue is doing nothing but creating a none essential issue - blaming something else because a diver simply didn't want to discuss, plan, and make dry runs with his or hers buddy.

Contemplating the issue is good. Nit-picking, balking, and trying to state an agency or poor baby sitting skills of a guide, the underlying theme in this thread, is lacking does nothing. Taking the contemplation a step further by planning (before the dive), rehearsing (before the dive), practicing (during a dive) as well as paying attention to gas supply and learn how to manage it is the appropriate action.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Yes, PADI's wording on tests and at times in materials can be a little confusing. I'll cut them some slack in that they have a LOT of materials.....

No excuse. PADI has incredible resources at its disposal. It just takes proper review. But I won't just pick on PADI here. SSI has no excuse for having a video of a diver in their dry suit course materials wearing doubles, long hose, and a snorkel! How in the world did that make it through SSI's training department? (and remember, I absolutely love SSI's OW materials which are hands down the most effective that I've come across)

I get that the safety question for guides is a bit nuanced, but I'd still like to know whether you think this is something OW courses should address more explicitly.

Here are two threads about variations on this scenario: OWN your Dive

Time to hang up my wetsuit after near death on NYE

And a more general discussion on what to do if your buddy ignores your thumb: Fatality in the Vandenberg Wreck, Key West Florida

People in the first two threads chastised the OPs for not following their training. So my original question was whether any agency's training actually covers this situation, either explicitly or implicitly. One person said it did, explicitly, though I'm skeptical. You've said SDI and probably PADI don't specifically cover it. You also said you teach about SOBs, buddyless group dives, and gas planning (and you've previously mentioned going beyond your agency's curriculum by creating additional materials), so is your answer that this sort of thing should be up to the instructor rather than the agency that prepares the course? Or just that there are too many contingencies to realistically try to cover? And if so, do you think it's unfair to criticize a diver in such a situation for not following their training? Or should the general principles they do learn be enough for them to make the right decision in that situation?

You'll excuse me for not going over those 3 threads which I've seen in the past, but don't remember all the comments.

I don't believe any agency explicitly covers in open water scenarios outside of people following the rules. I believe every single agency teaches the buddy system and expect it to be followed. Now what actual instructors do, I cannot even surmise from my narrow view. I do surmise that the level of training is too low, not even meeting agency standards or WRSTC guidelines. So, people not following their training is not a surprise.

I do remember that when I went through my IDC, I was told by my CD to "not scare the customers." Tell them the reason they need to learn to recovery their regulator is for when they have a picture taken of them. Not that they could have a reg kicked out of their mouths when diving from a cattle boat, as then they think this is going to happen and won't dive as a result. I say BS, but that's a philosophical discussion that is outside of the scope of this post (Wha! Wha! Whaaaat! Kosta isn't going waaaaaaay OT here?)

I think that there are instructors who cover the basics on what to do if a buddy violates the rules. The agencies need to follow suit, but I suspect not all will due to their concern of losing potential customers.

So to answer one of your questions. I think agencies overall are poor and indifferent to the violations of training that creates unsafe divers. As an instructor, I can only do my part with my own students. The agencies SHOULD elevate the minimum training and be proactive in enforcing it, but I won't hold my breath as that is bad for their revenue. But that doesn't mean that I strongly believe that most agencies need to raise the bar, some more than others.

To answer your first question, I'd like agencies to just get proper weighting down, and weight distribution correct, so that students have improved buoyancy control (2 of the top ten changes DAN called out in their 2016 report). Let's first address that as that is a larger contribution to diving accidents/fatalities than group diving/bad dive buddies.

 

[Esprise Me]

I'm not going to type the question (copy right - no agency wants people putting their test questions online. Note, I could careless whether people like or dislike the fact I refuse to type the entire question). The essence of the question is, a diver is low on air...what action(s) should be taken. Should the diver use an alternate air source, ascend at a reasonable rate, make an emergency ascent or bolt to the surface.

Nit-picking the issue is doing nothing but creating a none essential issue - blaming something else because a diver simply didn't want to discuss, plan, and make dry runs with his or hers buddy.

Contemplating the issue is good. Nit-picking, balking, and trying to state an agency or poor baby sitting skills of a guide, the underlying theme in this thread, is lacking does nothing. Taking the contemplation a step further by planning (before the dive), rehearsing (before the dive), practicing (during a dive) as well as paying attention to gas supply and learn how to manage it is the appropriate action.

It seems like you don't understand my question. But that's something of an answer in itself. It's useful for me to know, going forward, that even instructors in these threads can fail to grasp the difference between "I broke the rules" and "my buddy broke the rules and I wasn't prepared to deal with that."

 

[Steve_C]

I did my OW one on one with an instructor who was also a tech instructor and a personal friend. It was SDI but he was also a PADI instructor. We covered the book and had extensive discussions outside of class. We discussed a number of scenarios about everything. We discussed real scenarios for NC in addition to what is advocated at the basic level. Instabuddies, low viz, currents. During the course I went and read on my own death reports to see what mistakes had gotten folks killed so that I hopefully would not repeat them. In a number of these situations to do a direct ascent after a couple minutes is the worst thing one can do. From day one I was told I was responsible for myself.

 

[shurite7]

It seems like you don't understand my question. But that's something of an answer in itself. It's useful for me to know, going forward, that even instructors in these threads can fail to grasp the difference between "I broke the rules" and "my buddy broke the rules and I wasn't prepared to deal with that."

If you feel your question has been misunderstood then clarify it.

You mention "rules". What rule(s)? Be specific.