Crappie, Rock Bass, or Other?

[TwoBitTxn]

I consulted my Petersons,

I would call the first pic a young rock bass due to the marbeling on the belly.

In the two pictures above the top is definitly a rock bass. Count the dorsal spines. There are too many for a black crappie. I think the bottom one is also an adult rock bass due to the horizontal stripes on the belly.

TwoBit

 

[archman]

I consulted my Petersons,

I would call the first pic a young rock bass due to the marbeling on the belly.

In the two pictures above the top is definitly a rock bass. Count the dorsal spines. There are too many for a black crappie. I think the bottom one is also an adult rock bass due to the horizontal stripes on the belly.

Oh great, now I need to go find my freshwater fish books. It sounds to me like the Peterson guide is out to lunch. Marbeling and horizontal stripes, forsooth. If that bottom pic isn't a black crappie I'm going to shoot myself.

Thanks TwoBit, I was going to watch mindless television tonight. The things I do for scubaboard.

 

[Bob3]

Beer Batter Crappie, Rock Bass, or Whatever~


6 cans of beer
l-l/2 cups flour
1/4 cup cornstarch
1 large egg
2 teaspoons baking powder
1 tablespoon crushed fennel seed
1/4 teaspoon pepper or Cajun spice
1/4 teaspoon paprika
1/2 teaspoon granulated garlic
3 to 4 pounds fish fillets
l-l/2 teaspoons salt
Oil for frying, preferably canola

Combine 1 can of beer, flour, cornstarch, egg, baking powder, pepper or Cajun spice, paprika, and garlic in bowl and whisk lightly until smooth.

Reserve remaining beer for the Cook to consume.

Heat 2-3 inches cooking oil in large skillet to 375-400 degrees.

Pat fillets dry with paper towel; lightly sprinkle with salt and coat with batter.

Fry fish on one side for 3-4 minutes; then turn to fry other side an additional 2-3 minutes or until golden brown. DO NOT OVERCOOK! Drain on paper towel.

Note: It is NECESSARY to add either the paprika or cajun spice, as this will impart the golden color without overcooking the fish!

Other hints: Keep both the batter & the fish as cool as possible. If the batter doesn't stick, the fish was probably too wet or the batter too thin. (a light dusting of flour on the fillets will help).

 

[SeaYoda]

They don't call these things "panfish" for nothing .

I'm not sure the blood-lines are pure on most of these fish. They each have characteristics that are not easily classified. They just might be Blue gilled-sunny-rocky-crappie-crackerfish?

 

[WVDiver]

Yoda,

The genera Amblopites (Rock Bass), Lepomis (Sunfish) and Pomoxis (Crappie) all belong to the family Centrarchidae.

All 4 pics that you have shown are probably Ambloplites rupestris (Rock Bass). Ambloplites closely resembles several Lepomis species. It most closely resembles Lepomis cyanellus (Green Sunfish) and Lepomis gulosus (Warmouths) it can be distinquished from all Lepomis species by virtue of the presence of 5 to 8 anal fin spines (typically 6) as apposed to 3 anal fin spines in Lepomis.

While Pomoxis also has more than 3 annal fin spines (seperating it from Lepomis) it can further be distinguished from the genus Ambloplites as Ambloplites has 10-13 dorsal fine spines as apposed to 6 to 8 (typically) dorsal fin spines in Pomoxis.

Spines are the bony needle-like part of the fin that stick you and rays are soft and flexible.

Pomoxis annularis (White Crappie) can be distinguished from Pomoxis nigromaculatus (Black Crappie) as annularis typically has 6 dorsal fin spines whereas nigromaculatus will typically have 7 to 9 dorsal fin spines. Also the dorsal fin base will be shorter than the distance from the dorsal fin origin to the tip of the snout on the annularis and the dordal fin base will be equal to or longer than the distance from the dorsal fin origin to the tip of the snout on nigromaculatus.

I can not count the anal or dorsal fin spines in any of these pictures but having seen hundreds of specimens my guess would be Rock Bass. Not a hybrid and not a crappie.

If you look at the width of the fish in your pictures you will notice that it is very wide from the dorsal fin origin to the pelvic fin insertion. Typical of Ambloplites and noticeably wider than in Pomoxis which tends to slope much quicker toward the snout.

Hope this helps.

 

[SeaYoda]

Thanks for the help - I guess I'll grab one of these fish the next time I see it and count the holes in my hand :laughing:. I always wondered about the slope of the head not having a sharp enough bend and the thickness in front of the dorsal fin.

 

[archman]

While Pomoxis also has more than 3 annal fin spines (seperating it from Lepomis) it can further be distinguished from the genus Ambloplites as Ambloplites has 10-13 dorsal fine spines as apposed to 6 to 8 (typically) dorsal fin spines in Pomoxis.

Pomoxis annularis (White Crappie) can be distinguished from Pomoxis nigromaculatus (Black Crappie) as annularis typically has 6 dorsal fin spines whereas nigromaculatus will typically have 7 to 9 dorsal fin spines. Also the dorsal fin base will be shorter than the distance from the dorsal fin origin to the tip of the snout on the annularis and the dordal fin base will be equal to or longer than the distance from the dorsal fin origin to the tip of the snout on nigromaculatus.

I can not count the anal or dorsal fin spines in any of these pictures but having seen hundreds of specimens my guess would be Rock Bass. Not a hybrid and not a crappie.

If you look at the width of the fish in your pictures you will notice that it is very wide from the dorsal fin origin to the pelvic fin insertion. Typical of Ambloplites and noticeably wider than in Pomoxis which tends to slope much quicker toward the snout.

I'm not convinced. Yoda's bottom pic from post #19 has a classic crappie profile. My Texas type-illustrations for rock bass look nothing like this. The fin coloration is also spot-on. And even if the specimen has an anteriorly depressed dorsal, I doubt it extends far enough forward for a rock bass. And while I rarely rely on this by itself, the habitat type can be useful for species ID's. Crappies are far more likely to be found floating about in open water than rock bass.

The top photo screams Lepomis. Never seen a rock bass like that before in any book, and anyway, there's not enough anal spines. Bluegill maybe. That dingy eyeball is an embarrassment to all rock bass. Yoda, were you deeper than 40 feet when you took that picture?

I don't use fin rays or spines much in photo diagnostics, either. It's too difficult to get an animal in good profile, and even then all the fins may not be extended.

Oh wait. WVdiver, did you look at Yoda's later pics? They're on post #19. Hey, do you ever ever get cichlid or carp invasives in your samples?

 

[Itote]

What we have here is what I call a warmouth perch. It definitely aint a speck(crappie)
If I wasn't so lazy I'd google warmouth and see what I came up with.
Hope this helps.
Chris
On second thought:http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/Fishing/aquanotes-fishid/warmouth.htm
Though this is from Ohio, there found all over the place. I've caught them in Florida, Georgia, and the Carolinas.
Chris

 

[archman]

Well, warmouth are the most common species confused with rock bass. The key visual distinction in live specimens is the thick radiating bands on warmouth heads. Rock bass don't have these. Supposedly that's the origin of the common name... it's Indian "war paint" or something.

Warmouth are typically brown-gold in color. Eyeball's a bit smaller than rock bass, and not nearly so bloodshot. They're my second favorite north american sunfish species; rock bass are my #1.

Going the technical route, warmouth have 3 anal spines as opposed to the 5-7 for rock bass. But you really can't see that well from the photos.

 

[WVDiver]

I'm not convinced. Yoda's bottom pic from post #19 has a classic crappie profile. My Texas type-illustrations for rock bass look nothing like this. The fin coloration is also spot-on. And even if the specimen has an anteriorly depressed dorsal, I doubt it extends far enough forward for a rock bass. And while I rarely rely on this by itself, the habitat type can be useful for species ID's. Crappies are far more likely to be found floating about in open water than rock bass.

The pics in post #19 are Pomoxis. Black on top (for sure as I can easily count the dorsal fin spines) and white on bottom (an educated guess from looking at a picture based on the length of the dorsal fin base compared to the distance from the dorsal fin origin and the tip of the snout). Yoda should be able to verify this since he knows where he got the pictures.

While coloration can be an indicator of species I always try to find two or three defining characteristics as a final determination of species as this will also help to rule out hybridization. Coloration can be too variable from population to population due to slight genetic variartion and can also vary greatly among substrate types, adult and juvenile specimens, water pollution types and concentrations including turbidity and D.O., season, spawning, gender, and sometimes even food sources.

While we are working with adult specimens here (in posts #1 and #12) and do not know the exact location (I naturally assume Fl. as that is where Yoda resides). I will still argue Ambloplites just from my experience.

It is so hard to tell anything from a picture, even the best pictures that I have seen in ichthyology books and dichotomous keys can be misinterpreted at times due to the above mentioned variablity factors. This is why the key is more important than the picture in a dichotomous key, otherwise we would just use the pictures for identification and not worry about other characteristics.

Admittedly I am not familiar with the western populations such as those in the Texas area and will not doubt your word. I have seen Lepmois and Ambloplites of Fl. and find that they are very familiar with the WV specimens I have dealt with over the years.

The top photo screams Lepomis. Never seen a rock bass like that before in any book, and anyway, there's not enough anal spines. Bluegill maybe. That dingy eyeball is an embarrassment to all rock bass. Yoda, were you deeper than 40 feet when you took that picture?

I assume you are refering to post #1. Again color is not a good indicator in all instances and seldom used as a defining characteristc in any of the genera we are discussing here. The picture may not show good color depending on depth, light, refraction, appature settings etc. As for the number of anal fin spines.......I can't count them, they are laid back. How many do you count? I will venture to say it is not Lepomis macrochirus as it does not have a posterior dorsal fin spot which is a defining characteristic of macrochirus. Again I guess Ambloplites.

I don't use fin rays or spines much in photo diagnostics, either. It's too difficult to get an animal in good profile, and even then all the fins may not be extended.

Oh wait. WVdiver, did you look at Yoda's later pics? They're on post #19. Hey, do you ever ever get cichlid or carp invasives in your samples?

A good example of Lepomis macrochirus can be seen in the below picture of post #19. the fish in the background are all or mostly L. macrochirus. They have the posterior dorsal fin spot and if you look closely you can see faint vertical bands which is a characteristic of macrochirus in juvenile fish. These vertical bands sometimes carry over to the adults depending on envrionmental factors.