DAN data

[seahorsey]

Just reading the latest issue of the DAN magazine (Alert Diver), and here's an excerpt from their 2010 Fatalities Workshop:
" Forty % of the fatalities took place during a period of buddy separation; 14 % involved declared solo dives."

Both seem awfully, scarily high and will provide ample ammo for solo demonizers as this show gets on the road. Has anyone maybe already taken a closer look at the base data for those percentages?

Since I tend to blame info I don't like on statistics wrongly applied , I got a few questions:

It's not quite clear to me if the '14 % while on declared solo dives' were included in the '40% of deaths while separated'. Or do they go on top of that? Quite the difference if 54 % in total or 40 % in total of fatalities occurred while diving alone!

And I'd like to question the details of '40 % while in buddy separation". What's the story here? what came first? Diver A gets into trouble, buddy (sensibly or by accident) doesn't follow him into trouble, so diver A dies alone. Or is it thought that the buddy separation was somehow causative to diver A getting into trouble?

If anyone has any info to counter those bad-looking figures, I'd be grateful. Of course I would like to make the case that if more divers were prepared to solo (mentally, physically, training and equipment), then buddy separation wouldn't freak them out to the point of making other, deadly, mistakes. But without knowing the actual stories this could be considered cynical.

 

[scuba=dude]

I like the DAN mag but I don't hang on there every word. Bottom line with all Diving mags.....there trying to sell somthing......I would belive more what the coast grard has to say about it....thy have nothing to sell.

 

[diver_doug]

I would say the 40% and 14% are unrelated numbers; meaning that 40% of deaths involve separated buddies, and 14% were solo divers. But I, like you, would be interested to know what exactly constitutes a "separated" buddy. Take for example the death in Laguna recently where a diver ended up in "Giggle Crack" and was unable to be saved by his buddy. In some sense they were together because the buddy was right there when this happened, but in another sense they were separated since "diver A" was in the crack and "diver B" was not. So, yeah, it would be interesting to know what precisely constitutes a serparated diver in the mind of DAN.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I stopped taking DAN seriously when they published a story about a fellow who got separated from his buddy and proceeded to continue his dive until he ran out of air. The author's advice in this case wasn't to practice better buddy skills, or use common sense and end the dive when the separation occurred ... it was to purchase a pony bottle ...



At that point, DAN lost a lot of credibility with me ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[AfterDark]

Just reading the latest issue of the DAN magazine (Alert Diver), and here's an excerpt from their 2010 Fatalities Workshop:
" Forty % of the fatalities took place during a period of buddy separation; 14 % involved declared solo dives."

Both seem awfully, scarily high and will provide ample ammo for solo demonizers as this show gets on the road. Has anyone maybe already taken a closer look at the base data for those percentages?

Since I tend to blame info I don't like on statistics wrongly applied , I got a few questions:

It's not quite clear to me if the '14 % while on declared solo dives' were included in the '40% of deaths while separated'. Or do they go on top of that? Quite the difference if 54 % in total or 40 % in total of fatalities occurred while diving alone!

And I'd like to question the details of '40 % while in buddy separation". What's the story here? what came first? Diver A gets into trouble, buddy (sensibly or by accident) doesn't follow him into trouble, so diver A dies alone. Or is it thought that the buddy separation was somehow causative to diver A getting into trouble?

If anyone has any info to counter those bad-looking figures, I'd be grateful. Of course I would like to make the case that if more divers were prepared to solo (mentally, physically, training and equipment), then buddy separation wouldn't freak them out to the point of making other, deadly, mistakes. But without knowing the actual stories this could be considered cynical.

Seems to me they are 2 different things, solo diving and buddy separation. I'd say they should be classified separately. Mountain climbing, sailing, hiking, kayaking, hunting.....all these things and more dangerous when done solo. Diving is no different. Every time we dive we put our lives at risk in a hostile and dangerous environment. Having someone with you can be a life saver, that same someone could get you in trouble. It's a double edge sword. Bottom line is we pay our money and takes our chances. Personally I couldn't care less whether diving solo is an accepted or not, I started doing it before there was a cert for it and I'll continue to do it until I'm no longer capable.

 

[DevonDiver]

It's not quite clear to me if the '14 % while on declared solo dives' were included in the '40% of deaths while separated'. Or do they go on top of that? Quite the difference if 54 % in total or 40 % in total of fatalities occurred while diving alone!

How would a 'declared solo diver' lose their buddy??

The statistics are separate. The total figure of divers who died alone underwater is 54%.

And I'd like to question the details of '40 % while in buddy separation". What's the story here? what came first? Diver A gets into trouble, buddy (sensibly or by accident) doesn't follow him into trouble, so diver A dies alone. Or is it thought that the buddy separation was somehow causative to diver A getting into trouble?

I can't think of very many scenarios where a diver couldn't follow a victim to effect a rescue.

I interpret this to mean that divers were supposed to be on 'buddy dives', but either deliberately or accidentally lost contact with their buddy before or during the emergency that killed them.

Further study of diving incident statistics shows that many of the fatalities occured at the beginning or end of the dive. From my experience, being on the surface plus descent and ascent are the times when most dives get lazy with their buddy awareness. These are the times that divers 'sink away' and are never seen alive again.

These statistics would also include 'bolters' who panic and abandon their buddy when they experience difficulty.

 

[sylpha]

From my experience, being on the surface plus descent and ascent are the times when most dives get lazy with their buddy awareness. These are the times that divers 'sink away' and are never seen alive again.

.

That's just so true, the number of times i've been tempted to clip a buddy line on someone less experienced than myself when we are ascending. doesn't matter how many times you tell then if you have an ascent, a current, a reel & a buddy to deal with they will not make it any easier by being where you can see them.

 

[seahorsey]

"I can't think of very many scenarios where a diver couldn't follow a victim to effect a rescue." Well I was taught that the rescuer has to be certain he or she can stay safe herself, or not to attempt the rescue. That would limit me in a lot of situations, deep, cave, wreck etc.
I was also thinking of these not-so-rare scenarios where your buddy does something you perceive as risky, and you decide NOT to be a lemming and follow them into a dangerous situation, and so you basically say, ok, if you want to go in there, or down there, or under there, or out there, go for it - but I'm staying within the limits of my training and ability. So then we are technically separated - but if my stupid buddy gets into trouble then and shows up in a DAN statistic, it wasn't the buddy separation that caused it, but his decision to go where he had no business being!

 

[Bob DBF]

I was also thinking of these not-so-rare scenarios where your buddy does something you perceive as risky, and you decide NOT to be a lemming and follow them into a dangerous situation, and so you basically say, ok, if you want to go in there, or down there, or under there, or out there, go for it - but I'm staying within the limits of my training and ability. So then we are technically separated - but if my stupid buddy gets into trouble then and shows up in a DAN statistic, it wasn't the buddy separation that caused it, but his decision to go where he had no business being!

It was the buddy separation. The fact that your moron buddy decided to separate the team by his inappropriate behavior does not change the fact you are separated which now puts you both in more peril. I would bet this separates as many divers as inattention to each other.

"I can't think of very many scenarios where a diver couldn't follow a victim to effect a rescue." Well I was taught that the rescuer has to be certain he or she can stay safe herself, or not to attempt the rescue. That would limit me in a lot of situations, deep, cave, wreck etc.

I agree fully on your assessment seahorsey, I know my limitations and two dead people doesn't prove anything more than one, I may be crazy but I'm not stupid.


Bob
--------------------------------------
I may be old but I’m not dead yet.

 

[SeaYoda]

..." Forty % of the fatalities took place during a period of buddy separation; 14 % involved declared solo dives."

Both seem awfully, scarily high and will provide ample ammo for solo demonizers as this show gets on the road. ...

I'm not so worried about the buddy separation statistic. It goes to prove that we should want to be self sufficient. Just because someone becomes "solo" on a dive does not mean they were prepared to be solo. True statistics for the nay sayer would have to show how many prepared solo divers died as a result of being solo. Even a medical emergency may become a death with a buddy, so I tend not to get to worried about those either. I worry about the real increased risks encountered on a solo dive. If someone dies because they got entangled I would want to know if they had cutting tools. If someone ran out of air, I'd want to know if the equipment was all in working order.

Properly prepared solo dives can be as safe if not safer than buddy dives. Properly prepared solo divers can be the best buddy to someone and be prepared to survive bad buddies.