Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[Thalassamania]

Actually your statement is wrong. Name one diver who perished in caves following training guidelines? Can't do it can ya? Outside of a few collapses and maybe a health crisis I can't either. Can name many that broke training rules tho.

Parker Turner is the usual answer, but that was a collapse.

Having undergone training and following that training are two different things. I don't believe I can name any recreational divers who perished while following all training guidelines other than as a result of health problems or the actions of another. That probably attests to how conservative out guidelines are.

I could, without much effort, point to a fair number.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Having undergone training and following that training are two different things. I don't believe I can name any recreational divers who perished while following all training guidelines other than as a result of health problems or the actions of another. That probably attests to how conservative out guidelines are.

So, you have to agree then that if you get training and follow it, you are safer.

---------- Post added January 5th, 2013 at 09:36 PM ----------

Parker Turner is the usual answer, but that was a collapse.

I could, without much effort, point to a fair number.

Exactly, it was a collapse. I was there and swam
through the restriction as they call it a week ago.Can't help
but think of Parker when at that point.

 

[redacted]

So, you have to agree then that if you get training and follow it, you are safer.

I would state it a bit differently. If you follow recommended guidelines, you will reduce risk. But it has nothing to do with the idea that I can't name anyone who has died. Heck, my disinterest in cave diving leaves me in the position of not being able to name any cave divers.

 

[boulderjohn]

Having undergone training and following that training are two different things. I don't believe I can name any recreational divers who perished while following all training guidelines other than as a result of health problems or the actions of another. That probably attests to how conservative out guidelines are.

It is true that by far most of the recreational divers who died on recreational dives were not following training guidelines. They were trained in their certification classes to dive a certain way, and they violated those guidelines anyway. They were not ignorant of those guidelines.

It is true that by far most (all but one that we know of) of the certified cave divers who died on cave dives were not following cave training guidelines. They were trained in their certification classes to dive a certain way, and they violated those guidelines anyway. They were not ignorant of those guidelines.

It is true that ALL of the recreational divers who died on cave dives were not following cave training guidelines. The difference is that they were NOT trained in certification classes and were ignorant of those guidelines.

That is the point of this thread.

 

[redacted]

It is true that by far most of the recreational divers who died on recreational dives were not following training guidelines. They were trained in their certification classes to dive a certain way, and they violated those guidelines anyway. They were not ignorant of those guidelines.

It is true that by far most (all but one that we know of) of the certified cave divers who died on cave dives were not following cave training guidelines. They were trained in their certification classes to dive a certain way, and they violated those guidelines anyway. They were not ignorant of those guidelines.

It is true that ALL of the recreational divers who died on cave dives were not following cave training guidelines. The difference is that they were NOT trained in certification classes and were ignorant of those guidelines.

That is the point of this thread.

Not trained in certification classes - true. Ignorant of those guidelines seems to be an assumption. Or are you claiming that these guidelines are a close held secret only divulged in certification classes?

 

[boulderjohn]

Not trained in certification classes - true. Ignorant of those guidelines seems to be an assumption. Or are you claiming that these guidelines are a close held secret only divulged in certification classes?

No, they aren't a close kept secret. It is possible to obtain such training, not only in the academic concepts but in the skills (non-silting kicks, buoyancy control, lost line procedures, lost buddy procedures, etc.), out side of formal certification classes. But that would still be training, wouldn't it? And do you know anyone who got that comprehensive training outside of a formal certification class? I don't.

And the people whose habits spurred this thread are not talking about that., They are talking about that training, either formal or informal, being unnecessary.

 

[watercooled81]

And the people whose habits spurred this thread are not talking about that., They are talking about that training, either formal or informal, being unnecessary.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. I do not believe Certification/fomral training is the only path as I have stated a couple of times already in this thread. However informal training needs to be completed, knowledge learnt, and skills practiced in safe enviroments, then a a gradual increase in the difficultly of the dives completed. But as a non cert tech diver, I have a good understanding of my skills and abilities. I also know where to draw the line in a cave that i will not go any further. I am also sure many Cave divers here would go well beyond that line...

Blaming caves being closed just on the so called fatalitly rates is only part of the issue. Owners are scared of being sued as it has become a common thing in society for people to try and blame someone else for their own stupidity... Then the so called lawyers who are making a killing in this area...

As some people have mentioned. Caves vary hugely around the world, from the tiny ones where you have to go side mount, squezing through tight gaps, to the big open caves. That is where the lines need to be drawn. There are thousands of OW divers who enter "Caves" every year and are safe. These caves are normally huge with large openings and i mean large like 10 to 15 meters. No silt to stir up. Yet these are still classed as caves!

Then there are the caves that a lot of the discussion on this board is about the smaller caves which need additional skill sets......

The divers that go well beyond there skills, will not have their minds changed by people on an internet forum, no matter how much preaching goes on. What needs to happen is for people to pass on their experiences and stories, in hope these divers will learn from them.....

 

[boulderjohn]

I disagree. I do not believe Certification/fomral training is the only path as I have stated a couple of times already in this thread. However informal training needs to be completed, knowledge learnt, and skills practiced in safe enviroments, then a a gradual increase in the difficultly of the dives completed.

I have no idea what you are disagreeing with--I said pretty clearly that it is possible to get training outside of formal certification, at least in theory. I also said clearly that if you do get such training, then it is indeed training.

My point was that there are people claiming that the training is not necessary. Read through the thread and you will see them. The impetus for this thread was another thread in which the OP claimed that as an AOW diver with no training beyond that, he could do a specific cave dive that he described, and he was unimpressed by people who told him how dangerous it was. He was unimpressed by the fact that another similar diver tried the exact same dive less than a year before and died doing it. It is the people like that who really scare us.

The girl who was rescued this summer in Twin Cave certainly did not think she needed the training, and I bet she as really glad when an instructor found her in zero visibility.

Now, what about that informal training that you can in theory get?

I am an experienced recreational instructor and a tech instructor. I am fully cave certified. I am certified to teach the PADI cavern diving course. I would never, ever attempt to teach cave diving beyond that level without proper certification myself, and if you were to take cavern diving from me, you would learn that the primary focus of my training would be to make you aware of why more training is needed if you want to go beyond that. I would be very suspicious of any cave diver who offered to give you cave training outside of a formal certification program. (I am not talking about people mentoring you at your level after you have certification.) If you decide to get such informal training, remember that if your untrained instructor kills you, your family may have trouble getting anything from his estate--he will not have been insured for that instruction.

But you can learn it all from books, can't you? You will only think that is true if you have not been in a cave course and had a qualified instructor throw problems at you for which your book learning (which you already have had) is doing no good whatsoever.

 

[pgm1]

I understood cave diving to only be a sub point of this discussion.

The thread is entitled A--"Dangerous Psychology" and B--"Beyond One's Training." The two are both important but different. A lot of this discussion has pointed out the merits of proper academic and practical (open water) training. Few would debate this. But, the "dangerous psychology", I believe, is what most trainers call diving beyond your "level" which some confuse with literal depth. This concept is a combination of experience, confidence, and essential training needed (married with judgment). Two divers can have identical training and even number of dives, but one is simply not ready for a more challenging dive for any number of reasons. Actually, too many possible intervening variables to measure. An experienced dive partner or instructor who has dove with this diver many times can often sense the same. Whether you sum up the dangerous psychology as overconfidence or poor judgement, may be too simplistic and entirely dependant on context. The "safe psychology" is to carefully reflect on all of the above in light of the context your propose to expose yourself to in the dive (or the inherent unforeseen risks) and THEN consult a trusted conservative more experienced diver (or instructor, expedition leader) to check your assumptions and see if you are ignoring guidelines, need to adjust your plan, or abandon it completely due to an irrationally high level of risk.

"Level of Risk" is also personal and context dependant. Climbing Everest is inherently risky. There is a real statistical probability of death. Yet, pros and amateurs ignore this every season. Professional cave divers (and deep salvagers) do the same. So at some point one asks is the psychology of extreme "thrill" worth the risk. I can only say for myself--I have a wife and two kids--NO WAY!

 

[billgraham]

On Saturday night, Kevin, myself, and 100+ friends and family were fortunate enough to be at an event honoring Edd Sorenson for saving four lives in caves this year. At that event, a letter was read from the father (open water instructor) of one of the young women who was saved. I'm not going to get into the details of the incident but suffice it to say he is (was?) an open water instructor who took his two children into a small silty cave and all three almost perished. If you heard what he had to say, you'd understand what we are trying to tell you all. It was heart wrenching and believe me, he realizes just how close he came to killing himself and his two children now. If you think you can learn this stuff in a book or on some internet forum, you're seriously deluding yourself.