Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well you're absolutely right. Edd told me that when he found the girl in Twin (her rocket scientist father and brother having made it out alive) she was standing calmly on a rock with her nose in an air pocket, and she still had gas left in her single 80. That's a calm response to a panic situation, but it doesn't change the fact that none of them would have been in danger if they had the training.

... it also doesn't change the fact that if Edd hadn't been there to rescue her, she would have died ... the ability to remain calm in a crisis is an enormous asset, but you still have to know what to do to get yourself out of it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[billgraham]

... it also doesn't change the fact that if Edd hadn't been there to rescue her, she would have died ... the ability to remain calm in a crisis is an enormous asset, but you still have to know what to do to get yourself out of it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Right, the first time to try a zero vis exit is not when your life depends on it. Without the training, you're toast in that situation in that cavern.

 

[jewelofnile69]

You may find in another few years you wish to dive somewhere like Truk Lagoon, and even if you decide not to penetrate the wrecks you might like to dive them externally. As they can be quite deep but still reachable easily on air you may chose to then try tech diving, simply to be able to dive them or stay a little longer rather than the perception that many divers have of tech diving which is that its a specialist class and you are "probably " doing something very special.

Then again if that doesnt float your boat, maybe you will just stay with what you now enjoy. I agree time away from performing tasks does mean ability to perform skills can be somewhat deminished, hence I dive regularly every year. Your decision to polish your skills is commendable as most would not bother.

I see your point. And I wasn't saying that I would NEVER do any tech training/diving...just that if my preferences change, I would definitely get the training first. Truk does look amazing. I really feel like I'm still getting my feet wet...and that just because I've done AOW, deep, and a few other certs doesn't mean I even need to go to the max depth for recreational diving. I see just enough (for me) at 50-60 feet everywhere I've gone. For example, there is this sunken bus at a quarry south of where we live. I refused to go into it until after I had done my AOW (we'd done "wreck" as one of our dives and done some other wreck training like mapping and such with our same AOW inst just for the heck of it one time), had swam around the bus and looked in a couple of times on 2 other dives, and then waited till we had great visibility. Another "friend of a friend" person had been on a dive at the same place with us (who was relatively newly certified) and decided to go through that bus on a day with very bad vis, and then essentially panicked while in there cuz he got stuck and cut his hand on some zebra mollusks. Another friend had to go in and get him. I was slightly pissed over the whole situation and stressed out for ALL of us while down there (needless to say on many things I'm very cautious and concerned about everyone). Anyway, it's just that kind of thing that makes me wish everyone would just listen and heed what they are taught.

If everyone took your approach, we wouldn't be having threads like this one. Unfortunately, many people have a tendency to consider themselves far more capable than they actually are ... and sometimes the consequences of that assessment ruin not only their day, but that of everyone else around them. You don't have to be involved in an accident to suffer from one. I've known people who just happened to be on the same boat as someone who died on scuba, and it affected them profoundly ... even years later.

Granted, training isn't a guarantee that a diver won't be involved in an accident ... or won't know how to successfully assist someone who is ... but it increases the odds of a happier outcome considerably. It always boils down to how much risk you're willing to take ...

... Bob (Grateful DIver)

Hi Bob...great point. And yes, I can definitely see how it could affect them years later if they were there and not directly involved...it would me!

Right, the first time to try a zero vis exit is not when your life depends on it. Without the training, you're toast in that situation in that cavern.

Yikes!!

 

[txaggie08]

Does it matter if I don't plan to do any technical diving or dive beyond my training? I guess I'm asking why are you asking? If you are asking me if I realize there is a difference between classes taught for recreational diving from agencies like PADI and technical diving courses, then yes, I understand there is a difference. I do NOT think AOW, rescue, etc, translate to any knowledge whatsoever about technical diving. And I don't plan to do any technical diving...I'll leave that up to the people that want to. I prefer to dive for recreation exclusively. I stay out of wrecks as I have no training in being them. I stay out of swim throughs that don't look like a super-quick one. Etc.

My point really is that just because you are certified in something that doesn't equate to actually retaining the skills to do so after doing something...especially if you've taken a break from it. I was trying to say that, for example, if we haven't dove in awhile and we are going to go on a dive trip, we contact one of our instructor buddies to meet us at the pool to review all of our skills. So, I'm not paying for another class just to pay for a class, I'm reassessing my knowledge of my skills before entering the ocean after having been away from it from awhile.

Than you're not part of the problem being discussed in this thread. The problems are people who try to execute decompression/depp/black water/or overhead environment dives without the training. If you have no intention of doing them, you'll be fine, but I do have an issue with people bemoaning the "uselessness" or the "ineffectiveness" of training for technical diving vs. recreational diving.

It would be like an amateur street racer telling a new f1 driver they really didn't need to practice, they had taken drivers ed in school and though it was a waste of time.

 

[Peter69_56]

Than you're not part of the problem being discussed in this thread. The problems are people who try to execute decompression/depp/black water/or overhead environment dives without the training. If you have no intention of doing them, you'll be fine, but I do have an issue with people bemoaning the "uselessness" or the "ineffectiveness" of training for technical diving vs. recreational diving.

It would be like an amateur street racer telling a new f1 driver they really didn't need to practice, they had taken drivers ed in school and though it was a waste of time.

I assume you mean "those who say they don't need training as its useless or ineffective, I can pick this up on my own" compared to those who say "Give me quality training please, not tick a box and say you have been trained" If I am going to be trained by a tick a box trainer I will read up on it and find someone I trust to help me. I don't accept that because a person has a "trainer" cert that therefore makes them good and therefore they will provide quality training (although that is supposed to be the case).

I know from experience that this is NOT true. There are bad novices, bad divers, bad DM, and bad trainers, all mainly because of attitude.

All I ask is "Quality Training", and if I am not going to get that from anyone (lets assume for the argument that there are non available in my area and I have no hope of getting anyone other than a bad trainer ever), then I would either not do the course and thus not dive it (most probably), or if I had a great need to do that type of dive, then spend a very lot of time reading up, try and get help and assistance, and practicing what I have read before attempting it (most probably not).

But it is clear that there are trainers (good) and trainers (bad), and I for one will not pay for bad or poor training. I will not accept poor training from a person who is telling me things that "will" affect my health and life. If I get it wrong I could die and its a bit late to say to a trainer after you are dead "Oh by the way you didn't tell me that. and now I am dead because of it". In any regard before I take a course I get all the litterature I can on it first and try and become fully informed. In this way its somewhat of a check on the trainer as well.

As I have said previously, it doesnt mean to be a good trainer you have to be draconian and beat it into someone, rather that you get the information accross to the student, and then confirm that they do know what they are doing. The basis of all good training.

 

[billgraham]

Cave diving training is kind of different because there usually isn't a whole lot to discuss. You talk about the skill you're going to do on the dive, you do it, and it's really obvious if you screw it up, you know it, the instructor knows it, and you figure out what went wrong afterwards. You know when you look like a monkey @#$%ing a football. The academic part is tiny compared to the in-the-water part. That's why I laughed earlier in this thread when someone said "After you do the training you'll damned well know there was something you didn't know, and that it's really damned important." It's almost entirely non-verbal and everything is painfully obvious.

 

[vincent54]

I read a statement years ago from a better diver than I , about evolving as a diver. It has to do with skills, drills, knowledge and equipment, and all of them working together. Sorry if I don't remember who said that, but it is good advice to follow.

 

[Peter69_56]

Cave diving training is kind of different because there usually isn't a whole lot to discuss. You talk about the skill you're going to do on the dive, you do it, and it's really obvious if you screw it up, you know it, the instructor knows it, and you figure out what went wrong afterwards. You know when you look like a monkey @#$%ing a football. The academic part is tiny compared to the in-the-water part. That's why I laughed earlier in this thread when someone said "After you do the training you'll damned well know there was something you didn't know, and that it's really damned important." It's almost entirely non-verbal and everything is painfully obvious.

Cave diving is something I am in awe about. Love watching video of it but would never do it. I am impressed by the professionalism required to do it. I keep thinking of the young girl who died about a year ago over in South Australia. She was a very professional woman and lived cave diving. On the day she got it wrong and apparently remained calm unto the end. Often you hear of people who get stuck in ships and try and crawl through small openings in a panic to get out etc. I wonder if I could ever be so calm as her in that situation. Funnily enough I love ship wrecks and penetration of them, but have a fear of caves, both offer similar risk, although in cave diving if you are a long way in, its a long way back. With ships at least the distance is less (a mental consideration only), but suffers entanglements etc. I agree that with cave diving it is so obvious if you hasve it wrong, siltation, awareness, boyancy, direction etc all show ones flaws very quickly in these sorts of environments.

Anyway cave diving doesnt do it for me but wreck diving certainly does. I am very cautious of penetration of wrecks, in particular as many of the WWII wrecks are now starting to collapse on themselves and become even more hazerdous. Hence why one should have good training and build up ones experience in that sort of diving.

"Fools go where angels fear to tread" seems so appropriate with high risk diving and it appears there are so many fools available who "Know It All".

 

[billgraham]

Cave diving is something I am in awe about. Love watching video of it but would never do it. I am impressed by the professionalism required to do it. I keep thinking of the young girl who died about a year ago over in South Australia. She was a very professional woman and lived cave diving. On the day she got it wrong and apparently remained calm unto the end. Often you hear of people who get stuck in ships and try and crawl through small openings in a panic to get out etc. I wonder if I could ever be so calm as her in that situation. Funnily enough I love ship wrecks and penetration of them, but have a fear of caves, both offer similar risk, although in cave diving if you are a long way in, its a long way back. With ships at least the distance is less (a mental consideration only), but suffers entanglements etc. I agree that with cave diving it is so obvious if you hasve it wrong, siltation, awareness, boyancy, direction etc all show ones flaws very quickly in these sorts of environments.

Anyway cave diving doesnt do it for me but wreck diving certainly does. I am very cautious of penetration of wrecks, in particular as many of the WWII wrecks are now starting to collapse on themselves and become even more hazerdous. Hence why one should have good training and build up ones experience in that sort of diving.

"Fools go where angels fear to tread" seems so appropriate with high risk diving and it appears there are so many fools available who "Know It All".

I sought the cave training because I was doing exactly what you are now. There are thousands of shipwrecks off my island and I found myself swimming down (up?) companionways in an upside down WWI cruiser with zero overhead training. At that time the only place to learn that stuff was the caves . . .

 

[Peter69_56]

Yes you are right, cave diving is good prep for shipwrecks. My next foray after Extended range is Trimix and Adv Wreck diving. I love wrecks but do appreciate the risks.