Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[redacted]

Really? You're going to split hairs? What's another word for evaluator? Um.... I'll take Instructors for $100 Bob


-edit, and with that simple sentence, I just lost all respect for you. That's the most illogical statement I've read on SB all day.

Evaluator Synonyms, Evaluator Antonyms | Thesaurus.com

That's OK, you will still get the consolation prize. a brand new Thesaurus.

 

[Superlyte27]

yeah, clearly you've won. LOL.

Your signature is perfect for you.

I'm out.

 

[tstormdiver]

So it is not "instructors" that are required. Rather it is "safety officers" and "evaluators" that are necessary to insure the dives are safe and the required skills and abilities are demonstrated.

Is that all you think instructors do??? Come on, man,... I'm only a lowly OW instructor & I can guarantee you it is more. Much more than you can possibly fathom. Yes, I evauate, I also disminate information (generally to those who have no prior knowldge) & further explain what is not understood, I also teach my students vital skills, that at the end of the course, I have hopefully made my students safe & confident in their skills at their level & yes,... I keep them safe,while they are under my care. Even as a lowly Open Water instructor, what we teach is vastly beyond your description. The skills possed by Technical Instructors are light years beyond my own, because the environments that are being dove in are much more potentially hazardous. Going directly to the surface is not an issue in most recreational diving. In technical diving you have either rock, metal or an invisible ceiling that if you go beyond that depth, you are very likely to wind up injured or worse. Problems in these environment must be dealt with underwater until the dive either swims out or is cleared to go & these problems rarely present themselves as only 1. Typically one problem leads to another, leads to another, leads to another,....

 

[DaleC]

So, if you always have an instructor holding your hand when new or challenging conditions are present when do you develop the capacity to deal with those situations when you are deep, dark and alone?


I reject some others belief that I can only learn the way they learn. People are different.

Some people know how to access and incorporate information and are comfortable developing new skills via informal or self directed methods. Some people feel more comfortable having knowledge imparted to them via formal channels and being assessed by an external source. People are different.

I do not know the specifics of the thread in question and do not speak for anyone other than myself but I feel fairly confident tackling new challenges without formal education. That doesn't make me either foolish or a thrill seeker, it's just how I operate. I don't knock anyone for taking a course but I don't knock myself because I don't. Ones ability to sit in a classroom and produce what an instructor requests may not measure up to anothers innate ability to independently analyze and problem solve - which is the greatest skill one can possess in advanced diving.

What is also missing in the equation is the concept of pacing and progressive experiential learning, or, taking the time to internalize what one learns. One can, for example, take formal course after formal course without spending the time in between to cement in experience what one has learned. On the other hand one can self teach themselves over a period of time in a graduated way so that knowledge and experience are evenly matched. And vise versa. Claiming formal education trumps informal learning completely ignores this important point.

Sometimes I take a course and sometimes I do not - I rarely feel obligated out of principle to do so in order to learn though.

Just caught this:

"Problems in these environment must be dealt with underwater until the dive either swims out or is cleared to go & these problems rarely present themselves as only 1. Typically one problem leads to another, leads to another, leads to another,.... "

That's not true. Most problems are resolvable when possessed with a calm mind and the right tools for the job. Cascading events are usually the result of panic. I've always been curious as to who would be more likely to panic - someone who is used to having a superior supervising their actions or someone who is used to dealing with situations independently?

 

[Rogersea]

These type of discussions are tiresome and unproductive. Most of the "Pro training only arguments" might be a bit more compelling if they were not being started by or defended by instructors with a vested interest in providing formal training .


Cheers,
Roger

 

[tstormdiver]

These type of discussions are tiresome and unproductive. Most of the "Pro training only arguments" might be a bit more compelling if they were not being started by or defended by instructors with a vested interest in providing formal training .


Cheers,
Roger

Uhmmmmm..... wrong!...... I don't even usually cover expenses when I instruct. I enjoy the sport & I enjoy passing along knowledge & skills in a safe manner. There is no "vested interest" here. Not everyone has ulterior motives, as some of the conspiracy theorist here have.

 

[Superlyte27]

"Problems in these environment must be dealt with underwater until the dive either swims out or is cleared to go & these problems rarely present themselves as only 1. Typically one problem leads to another, leads to another, leads to another,.... "

That's not true. Most problems are resolvable when possessed with a calm mind and the right tools for the job. Cascading events are usually the result of panic. I've always been curious as to who would be more likely to panic - someone who is used to having a superior supervising their actions or someone who is used to dealing with situations independently?

Dale:

So I know what I'm dealing with, what is your highest cert level?
Your quote above is wrong. In a cave, a diver can be completely calm, but had a catastrophic gas loss and in getting the valve shut down drop a light, silt out vis, lose a buddy, etc. etc. etc. This diver hasn't panicked, but the problem has escalated. And that's not an exhaustive list. There are things that go from bad to worse in an overhead environment all the time.

I agree you can learn from a book the procedures to resolve most emergencies. But how are you going to practice these simulated emergencies underwater in real life conditions without someone who can tell you what your doing wrong, or what you did right, or how to improve on it? A book isn't going to tell you that, and you won't be able to determine that on your own. Hell, I dove with a cave diver for 2 months recently who didn't believe her frog kick sucked, that it produced tons of silt and no thrust. It took many people telling her before she finally realized there was issues with it, and only then did she start to get it fixed. Today, her frog kick rocks, she's got tons of thrust, and because of that her sac rate in a cave is awesome. But where was the book who helped correct her frog kick? She couldn't even see the problem with it.

Yup, I'll say it again. You can get the theory and procedures from a book. You can get the math from a book. Read every book on diving ever written, it won't make you a better diver. I recently had students who bought every cave diving book published. They had read them cover to cover multiple times. When we got into the water they couldn't demonstrate the proper way to tie off a reel. Actually, they couldn't demonstrate the proper way to tie off a reel on land or in the water.

As far as vested interest being an instructor ---
I make anywhere from 250-20,000 per day in my real job. If I'm teaching diving, I don't make anywhere near that. I promise I lose money when I'm teaching every single time. I'm very selective in my students. If you're not someone who knows someone, you probably can't get into my class. I could care less about making money teaching. I teach ONLY because I want to. I could care less about pursuing some agenda here. I speak only because I believe wholeheartedly about what I'm saying.

But, I'm probably talking to someone who's never taken a high level technical course and no matter what I say, could not possibly understand the error in their logic. And that's fine too.

 

[Kharon]

Training decreases the likelihood of you dying or being injured.

A very elderly, tiny (but anything but frail) lady whose diving skills I have utmost respect for always used to say "The only thing that training does is give you the card to go out and start learning how to do it right". Her philosophy was that you should be practicing something on every dive. Perfection is never acchieved, only strived for.

This is stuff that's much more useful (and safer) in a training environment than it would be if the first time it happened, it was real.

Amen to that, bro.

 

[DaleC]

Dale:

So I know what I'm dealing with, what is your highest cert level?

AOW - which I took immediately after OW. Almost everything else I've done in diving has been the result of self study. But that's what I mean about some people being able to access information in different ways. It's in my profile if you click on it.

Yup, I'll say it again. You can get the theory and procedures from a book. You can get the math from a book. Read every book on diving ever written, it won't make you a better diver.

Disagree. Most of the other stuff is just taking the best or worst case scenario to prove/disprove a point which is a no-win quagmire I choose not to step into.

But, I'm probably talking to someone who's never taken a high level technical course and no matter what I say, could not possibly understand the error in their logic. And that's fine too.

There's this concept in diving called situational awareness which I feel I should point out at this juncture... I'm not the person who made those comments. Your dismissive attitude towards a complete strangers ability to think doesn't win me over to your belief system in any case. I'm not speaking in absolute terms - just for my own situation; and I think I presented a fairly balanced and intelligent POV in that regard, even if one disagrees. I certainly didn't need to insult anyone else along the way in doing so.

This subject is not a yes/no proposition. It varies in regards to the individual, aptitude and degree. You may argue from one perspective and I from another, but neither of us will encompass an absolute position that addresses all people, all the time.

 

[redacted]

Is that all you think instructors do??? Come on, man,... I'm only a lowly OW instructor & I can guarantee you it is more. Much more than you can possibly fathom. Yes, I evauate, I also disminate information (generally to those who have no prior knowldge) & further explain what is not understood, I also teach my students vital skills, that at the end of the course, I have hopefully made my students safe & confident in their skills at their level & yes,... I keep them safe,while they are under my care. Even as a lowly Open Water instructor, what we teach is vastly beyond your description. The skills possed by Technical Instructors are light years beyond my own, because the environments that are being dove in are much more potentially hazardous. Going directly to the surface is not an issue in most recreational diving. In technical diving you have either rock, metal or an invisible ceiling that if you go beyond that depth, you are very likely to wind up injured or worse. Problems in these environment must be dealt with underwater until the dive either swims out or is cleared to go & these problems rarely present themselves as only 1. Typically one problem leads to another, leads to another, leads to another,....

I am not looking to belittle the contributions of instructors. (I was one for quite a few year - not scuba). I am commenting on the idea that the only way to learn is through (formal) training conducted by a "certified" instructor. But, I do have some resentment that many scuba agencies may require me to waste time and money on unnecessary instruction just to receive a c-card. I fully agree that the evaluation function is essential if a piece of plastic is to be issued. And the safety contributions are important for controlling risks although that particular contribution may be better provided by a buddy/mentor. I say better because of the one-on-one nature of a buddy/mentor. Sadly, it is not hard to find safety failures in formal training because of the practice of an instructor and/or DM attempting to cover a number of students. I expect that much of technical training is done in a 1-on-1 situation to avoid such problems.

My beef is strictly with the idea that training (by certified instructors) is the ONLY way to obtain knowledge, skills, and abilities.