Inspector#2
Contributor
Is there a place accident reports can be found to do a little risk analysis for diving incidents? Something much like the NTSB library for aviation safety.
Dave
Dave
DEATHS IN FLORIDA
- Thread starter Madder_Than_Hell
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Warhammer,
Giving a teenage student a light to check out the darker portions of a cavern could be eqivalated to giving a teenager whom just minutes ago got their learner permit, the keys to a brand new Ferrari, and asking they don't go anywhere other than around the block once. It's just asking for trouble.
No the instructor probably did not tell them to go kill themselves. No the instructor didn't take them there himself. But there is still in my eyes some degree of responsibility there. At least that's my opinion with the limited knowledge of the facts we have on this.
Inspector #2, The NAUDC (National Underwater Accident Data Collection Center) is one place to look.
Giving a teenage student a light to check out the darker portions of a cavern could be eqivalated to giving a teenager whom just minutes ago got their learner permit, the keys to a brand new Ferrari, and asking they don't go anywhere other than around the block once. It's just asking for trouble.
No the instructor probably did not tell them to go kill themselves. No the instructor didn't take them there himself. But there is still in my eyes some degree of responsibility there. At least that's my opinion with the limited knowledge of the facts we have on this.
Inspector #2, The NAUDC (National Underwater Accident Data Collection Center) is one place to look.
Hay Eric:
Where can I get a copy of that NSS tape you mentioned?
I dove the Bonne Terre mines when they were first opened, and I think that tape would be interesting.
This is for those of you out there who are instructors.
Please understand that I'm NOT trying to flame any one, but when I went through dive training (1970) the single biggest thing that the instructors tried to get across to pre think what you are going to do, have a plan for any contingency you think might happen, and DON'T PANIC!
When my children were certified last year I went with them and there was no great emphasis placed on panic control. There was no practice on what to do when out of air, by turning off the air compleatly, no buddy breathing, nothing to startle or suprise the new diver. My question is, how can you send your student out into a deadly environment with out giving them the best training you can?
Yah, these guys died because they were a little stupid, but can't the agency that they were certified under take a little blame too because they don't want to scare off customers if the training is too hard?
Maybe I'm just old, or maybe I've been in management and done too much safety training of my employees.
50sDiver
Where can I get a copy of that NSS tape you mentioned?
I dove the Bonne Terre mines when they were first opened, and I think that tape would be interesting.
This is for those of you out there who are instructors.
Please understand that I'm NOT trying to flame any one, but when I went through dive training (1970) the single biggest thing that the instructors tried to get across to pre think what you are going to do, have a plan for any contingency you think might happen, and DON'T PANIC!
When my children were certified last year I went with them and there was no great emphasis placed on panic control. There was no practice on what to do when out of air, by turning off the air compleatly, no buddy breathing, nothing to startle or suprise the new diver. My question is, how can you send your student out into a deadly environment with out giving them the best training you can?
Yah, these guys died because they were a little stupid, but can't the agency that they were certified under take a little blame too because they don't want to scare off customers if the training is too hard?
Maybe I'm just old, or maybe I've been in management and done too much safety training of my employees.
50sDiver
ericfine50
Contributor
You can get the tape from the NSS-CDS directly. Their web site is http://www.caves.org/section/cds/. I think it costs about $15.00.
As a cave diver, accident analyist was a major part of my training. It was never looked at as a morbid thing, but as a way to make sure we stay alive. Even Sheck Exley broke the rules (he wrote in his book "Blueprint for survival - must read).
I personally think a cavern and Intro. to cave class is training that all divers should take. The skills and gear configuration you learn will benefit you in all types of diving.
I received an email about the deaths and the person had contacted the instructor and said the two had entered the water before him and then he noticed the silt in the cave.
Just some Sunday morning rants from a person without his coffee
If people are looking for some good books to read, check out:
The Art of Safe Cave Diving
Blueprint for Survival
Deeper into Sport Diving
Eric
As a cave diver, accident analyist was a major part of my training. It was never looked at as a morbid thing, but as a way to make sure we stay alive. Even Sheck Exley broke the rules (he wrote in his book "Blueprint for survival - must read).
I personally think a cavern and Intro. to cave class is training that all divers should take. The skills and gear configuration you learn will benefit you in all types of diving.
I received an email about the deaths and the person had contacted the instructor and said the two had entered the water before him and then he noticed the silt in the cave.
Just some Sunday morning rants from a person without his coffee
If people are looking for some good books to read, check out:
The Art of Safe Cave Diving
Blueprint for Survival
Deeper into Sport Diving
Eric
Eric,
Thanks for the tips on the books, I'll check them out. I just finished Bernie Chowdhury's book The Last Dive and I've read Bret Gilliam's Deep Diving - An Advanced Guide to Physiology, Procedures and Systems several times, both of which are also "Must Reads"
Thanks for the tips on the books, I'll check them out. I just finished Bernie Chowdhury's book The Last Dive and I've read Bret Gilliam's Deep Diving - An Advanced Guide to Physiology, Procedures and Systems several times, both of which are also "Must Reads"
DiverInAk
Contributor
I agree with Eric here. While we know PADI and others are trying to promote recreational diving to keep the business flowing and expose more people to the wonders of the underwater realm, I don't think there is enough emphasis on what can truly kill you!
In preparing my kids for their OW class and what I hope will be a long life of diving, I have discussed many diving fatalities with them. I want them to understand that this sport has risks, and these risks can kill. Of course we analyze and discuss what went wrong and what not to do.
Not to take anything away from the risks inherent in diving to depth or in an overhead environment, but as this recent case has shown, and the statistics substantiate - most deaths are at or near the surface and were preventable.
The training organizations should have a chapter devoted to post accident analysis which is openly discussed with instructor and students. The good instructors probably do this anyway, but it should be across the board. Then maybe newly certified divers would think twice about venturing into a wreck or cave.
In preparing my kids for their OW class and what I hope will be a long life of diving, I have discussed many diving fatalities with them. I want them to understand that this sport has risks, and these risks can kill. Of course we analyze and discuss what went wrong and what not to do.
Not to take anything away from the risks inherent in diving to depth or in an overhead environment, but as this recent case has shown, and the statistics substantiate - most deaths are at or near the surface and were preventable.
The training organizations should have a chapter devoted to post accident analysis which is openly discussed with instructor and students. The good instructors probably do this anyway, but it should be across the board. Then maybe newly certified divers would think twice about venturing into a wreck or cave.
ericfine50
Contributor
The reason the dive industry does not have accident analyist as part of their OW training is it would hurt the image of the sport. Diving is touted as something anyone can do and it is 100%, you can never get hurt.
Eric
Eric
When does a "swim through" become an overhead environment?
You see all types of objects in the quarries around here, culverts, school busses, huey helicopters, etc.. and while they don't compare to a cave, they still present a barrier to the surface.
The "tubes" at one quarry are culverts about 6 feet in diameter and 20-30 feet long at a depth of 50-60 feet. Not likely to get lost in there, but I still wonder if they are a no-no for a non-cavern-trained diver.
The helicopter, on the other hand, is only about 6 feet wide.
You see all types of objects in the quarries around here, culverts, school busses, huey helicopters, etc.. and while they don't compare to a cave, they still present a barrier to the surface.
The "tubes" at one quarry are culverts about 6 feet in diameter and 20-30 feet long at a depth of 50-60 feet. Not likely to get lost in there, but I still wonder if they are a no-no for a non-cavern-trained diver.
The helicopter, on the other hand, is only about 6 feet wide.
Iguana Don
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AllanP,
It becomes an Overhead environment when you can't make a direct ascent to the surface. Swimthrough, bus whatever.
ID
It becomes an Overhead environment when you can't make a direct ascent to the surface. Swimthrough, bus whatever.
ID
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