Deco Proc Course Gear Requirments

[donooo]

A couple of you have heard from me in the past on this topic. I am one of the single guys. I will never own doubles and the only time I will/would ever dive them is in a class. So hence what is to be gained by requiring them for training in either Adv X or Deco. You are trying to learn knowledge and concepts. If your goal is "true" tek, by all means do it in doubles. I will take the classes in a month in doubles, but I will then buy a 120 with an H valve as it has more practical applications to me. Easier to haul on and off of boats, store on a boat and to get filled.

It seems that we might be messing here with the gray line between advanced rec and "true" tek.

tnx don O

 

[Dive-aholic]

Thanks Steve and Sean. I appreciate the responses. I had no problems shooting a bag. I learned it in my wreck course and I teach it to my AOW students. I just didn't see the point of doing it when the course is done in a cave, which my courses were.

 

[rescue15]

wearing manifolded six litre (45 cubic foot) cylinders. This is a very light option.

If this configuration is acceptable, then why wouldn't a 95 or even greater size single with a pony (NOT a spare air) of say 25 cu ft or greater fit the requirements...My usual dive configuration consists of a LP steel 95 and a HP steel 26 pony. I carry more air doing rec dives than the double 45's . I used to dive double 100's but got tired of the weight. There are many reasons a person would want to take adv deco and not want to dive doubles. If it can be done safely, why should he be forced to dive a setup he is uncomfortable with? Isn't being uncomfortable and unfamiliar with your equipment equally as dangerous? Why is a "tech diver" always translate to "I dive with doubles"?

Steve

 

[Doppler]

If this configuration is acceptable, then why wouldn't a 95 or even greater size single with a pony (NOT a spare air) of say 25 cu ft or greater fit the requirements...My usual dive configuration consists of a LP steel 95 and a HP steel 26 pony. I carry more air doing rec dives than the double 45's . I used to dive double 100's but got tired of the weight. There are many reasons a person would want to take adv deco and not want to dive doubles. If it can be done safely, why should he be forced to dive a setup he is uncomfortable with? Isn't being uncomfortable and unfamiliar with your equipment equally as dangerous? Why is a "tech diver" always translate to "I dive with doubles"?

Steve

Not sure to whom you addressed this, but I think the responses in this thread made with my TDI hat on made it clear that your suggested configuration IS acceptable. The key is redundancy and working within a sensible gas management plan. Nothing to do with twins

 

[rescue15]

Not sure to whom you addressed this, but I think the responses in this thread made with my TDI hat on made it clear that your suggested configuration IS acceptable. The key is redundancy and working within a sensible gas management plan. Nothing to do with twins

This was not addressed to you Steve. I guess it was addressed to the instructors who will not let you take the class without doubles. ( I think one of the earlier posts in this thread implied it couldn't be done without doubles). I think SDI-TDI does a great job in their teachings and class structure. I am a recent convert from PADI. I feel my education has just begun. However, when you allow your instructors to set standards, there will undoubtedly be those who go over the top, ( I can imagine DIR divers), and will go into it with the attiude of if it's not my way of life/thinking it's wrong. Every "extreme" hobby and career have their share of these people. Understandingly, similar people will gravitate together. Those instructors will never have any problem getting new students but they will also push away the "not so extreme" diver who would like to get a taste of advanced and tec practices but doesn't want to go all in. This may be a turn off for these people and they will sadly never progress in their training. I've seen this happen to people in my carreer as well as in extreme sport hobbiests.

I know this post smacks of hijacking and for this I apologize. I have dived with doubles and didn't like it. As I stated before I now dive with larger capacity singles and a pony. I usually dive with more air now than I used to with doubles. Even with the amount of air I carry, I am seen not as a tec diver but as a rec diver that carries alot of air. As you stated...The key is redundancy and working within a sensible gas management plan.
This is what I believe and how I dive.

Steve

 

[Divin'Papaw]

This was not addressed to you Steve. I guess it was addressed to the instructors who will not let you take the class without doubles. ( I think one of the earlier posts in this thread implied it couldn't be done without doubles). I think SDI-TDI does a great job in their teachings and class structure. I am a recent convert from PADI. I feel my education has just begun. However, when you allow your instructors to set standards, there will undoubtedly be those who go over the top, ( I can imagine DIR divers), and will go into it with the attiude of if it's not my way of life/thinking it's wrong. Every "extreme" hobby and career have their share of these people. Understandingly, similar people will gravitate together. Those instructors will never have any problem getting new students but they will also push away the "not so extreme" diver who would like to get a taste of advanced and tec practices but doesn't want to go all in. This may be a turn off for these people and they will sadly never progress in their training. I've seen this happen to people in my carreer as well as in extreme sport hobbiests.

There are a good number of DIR or heavily DIR influenced TDI instructors. If that's not your cup of tea, find a different instructor.

I know this post smacks of hijacking and for this I apologize. I have dived with doubles and didn't like it. As I stated before I now dive with larger capacity singles and a pony. I usually dive with more air now than I used to with doubles. Even with the amount of air I carry, I am seen not as a tec diver but as a rec diver that carries alot of air. As you stated...The key is redundancy and working within a sensible gas management plan.
This is what I believe and how I dive.

Steve

I'll let actual TDI instructors address your question directly, but speaking as a very new tech diver I want to point out some semantics. A pony bottle is a purely recreational concept. It's for the purpose of bringing a completely redundant alternate air source that is not factored into the dive plan. It's for emergencies only. If you have to go to it the dive is over and you ascend. There just isn't enough gas there to get you through a serious issue at depth.

In technical diving, all of the gas you have ... back gas and deco gases ... are part of an overall plan for the dive. The reason doubles are frequently required is that not only do you need to have more than enough back gas, think rule of thirds, but you need additional redundancy in accessing that gas in the event of an issue without having to immediately ascend. If you've racked up a deco obligation and have an issue with your back gas such as a 1st stage failure, burst disk failure or a tank o-ring extrusion, switching to a Pony bottle just won't cut it.

Most of the TDI instructors I looked at before beginning my training required two first stages and two second stages, one on a 7' hose and one on a 22"-24" hose and bungeed around your neck. Doubles were highly recommended, but you could also use a large single cylinder with an H-valve. While this doesn't provide you protection from a tank o-ring extrusion or burst disk failure, it does provide protection from a much more common 1st stage issue such as a freeflow in cold water. The problem then becomes the limits impossed by such a small air supply when diving thirds, but that's another issue alltogether.

 

[Scuba Cowboy]

Rescue 15: One of the great things about TDI is that they allow their instructors to teach the way they want. Their instructors don't dictate standards, they are allowed to work within them and create the kind of classes they think are best for their students. Everywhere else on this board we hear complaints of "dumbing down of classes", and some of us that teach for TDI have our own personal standards for a class that we refuse to "dumb down". I will not compromise my beliefs on the way my class will be taught. If my beliefs and yours don't match, I don't want you in my class.
Deco diving is technical diving, plain & simple. Its DANGEROUS. While I admit the class can be done in a big single tank, its not the safest configuration, therefore its not in my class. We cannot be all things to everyone, so if its your desire to do the class a certain way, you'll have to find the person that shares your beliefs. Its part of finding the right instructor for you. I wish you the best of luck in all your diving.

 

[rescue15]

I really didn't mean to offend anybody with my posts. (not even the DIR divers) I have been diving for about 20 years and I also don't think classes should be dummied down. I know I learned alot of things in my PADI open water that are not even touched on anymore and that is wrong. I still disagree with letting the instructors shape their classes the way they see fit. One thing I do agree with the DIR philosophy is the idea of consistancy. Consistancy should be an overriding factor in scuba instruction. You should be able to dive on any charter and know your buddy is speaking the same languabe as you.

I have been a carreer firefighter for over 23 years. This is one of th emost dangeroud professions there is. I live my life in limited viz and overhead environments. I know the importance of proper training but it needs to be consistant. For the last almost 10 years the fire service has been working towards a unified command system. What this means is a person from CA can go to MD and speak the same language while commanding a major incident. Everybody in the United States that is a firefighter can go anywhere in this great country and do his job 1000 miles away from home and do it as if he grew up there. Diving - one of the most dangerous hobbies should be the same way.

Blanket statements are what I mostly object to. If you don't dive doubles you can't penetrate...or cave dive or dive using the tec diver methodology...or you have to dive dry...Blanket statements also impart a very narrow mindedness. This can tend to stagnate learning and hinder progression. If you are not open to new ways and new technology you will never progress to the next level.

Yes deco diving is dangerous. I was diving doubles, hanging stage and deco bottles and doing deco on 100% oxygen before nitrox was widely accepted and long before Tec diving was a catch phrase.

Tec divers do not belong to a secret society. We should impart all our knowledge to whoever wants to learn it. If that means allowing large capacity singles then so be it. It can be done safely - you just have to be open to new configurations and ideas.

The Fire Department has had a saying..." 200 years of tradition unencumbered by progress or technology". Even the Fire service has seen the importance of change and embraces new technology now. Why can't the dive industry do the same.

Steve

 

[crpntr133]

One reason that I see why the dive industry can't have uniform dive rules is because this sport involves many countries, and widely varied conditions. To give a minimum standard and let instructors add to it as they see fit is probably one of the few ways that I see it can be done.
To teach everyone to dive every situation would take longer than anyone is willing to spend just to begin scuba diving.
I like the DIR philosophy but I would be willing to bet that there are those that teach more than the DIR standards.

I wish I would have learned as much as I did from my intro to tech, adv. nitrox and deco in all the rest of my dive classes. This came from not only the instructor but also from the three others that I took the class with.
From what I understand my Intro to Tech was not taught the normal way for most. The instructor knew that we were going on with adv. nitrox and deco and geared our intro class to it. We did the minimum and incorporated other things into it. I feel that this helped at least a little bit with me feeling more comfortable with the adv. nitrox and deco class.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Diving - one of the most dangerous hobbies should be the same way.

Oh, please! There are lots of other hobbies more dangerous and with more injuries and fatalities than diving, even when you take into account non-recreational diving. Diving does not need to be uniform across the board. It's a recreation, not a job.